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Post by S2Lit2008HCI on Mar 28, 2008 3:32:34 GMT -5
Post your answers as replies to this thread. Do NOT start a new thread!
Chapter 2: Fire on the Mountain
1) Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind?
2) Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense?
3) Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer.
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Post by 2cjamesquah28 on Apr 4, 2008 4:46:23 GMT -5
Hey all, for now, i'll be attempting one of Miss Ngo's questions.
Question 3
Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer.
Firstly, to start it off. The meaning of "conflict" actually is "a concept can help explain many aspects of social life and social death such as social disagreement, conflicts of interests, and fight between individuals, groups, or organizations."
-Defined by Wikipedia ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict )
So, was there any social disagreement, conflicts of interests and any fights at this stage of the novel? In my point of view, there is a SLIGHT extent of social conflict. Hence, where does this social conflict first set foot in the novel? My answer would be on page 48 whereby Ralph was trying to strongly voice out his opinion that there wasn't a snake/beast on the island in order to comfort the "littlelun" that had a mulberry mark on his face. However, at this point, Jack actually broke in to say that
"Ralph's right of course, THere isn't a snake thing. But if there was a snake, we'd hunt it and kill it. We're going to hunt pigs to get meat. And we'll look for the snakes too"
Ralph argued back that there wasn't any snake. However, Jack still rebutted with a "We'll make sure when we go hunting." with "the eyes that looked so intently at Jack were without humour." NOW, at this part, Ralph was actually ANNOYED
and "defeated" and emphasized that there wasn't a beast with his emotions rising inside of him. This can be supported by the "Something he had not known was there rose in him and compelled him to make the point, loudly and again." on page 48. Hence, this statement strongly supports my point that Ralph actually was angry at this point as Jack's view differed from him (conflict of interest). On page 49, there was evidence of a conflict between Ralph and Jack too. At line 22, when Ralph had suggested a fire, the other boys went excited in the head about the fire. Also, at this point, Jack clamoured among them and shouted "Come on! Follow me!" ALTHOUGH Ralph still held the conch and hadn't finished with his statement. Ralph "shouting for quiet" actually went to waste as the book states that " All at once the crowd swayed towards the island and were gone-following Jack." with "Ralph was left, holding the conch with no one but Piggy." This once again supports the point that there was a conflict of interest between Ralph and Jack. Hence, i conclude that at this stage in the novel. There was indeed conflicts between Ralph and Jack, but to a SMALL EXTENT. I sincerely hope that you'll take time to read my post as it'll help all of us. Hope it is not too long for you. Regards, James
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Post by 2cpekjiehui27 on Apr 4, 2008 4:52:04 GMT -5
Hi people
I shall answer question 1 =D
1) Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind?
Firstly, children actually imagine monsters mostly at night. This is because at night they have the feeling of being unable to act freely and being restricted in their movements. In other words, children do not have a sense of security and protection. When children lack these, they tend to drill into their own weaknesses instead of their strong points, and imagining things which are actually not there at all. In many cases children themselves even know that it really does not exist, however, the fear conquers their heart and mind instead, causing them to still imagine the existence of monsters.
On the island in Lord of the Flies, the child actually said "in the morning it (the beastie) turned into them things like ropes in the trees and hung in the branches" ,"it will come back tonight" and "the beastie came in the dark". Notice that the luttlun actually only "saw" the beast at night and in the morning everything goes back to normal. This proves that the child was imagining it from the creepers, twigs and branches which seemed to form into a long body-liked thing like the snake beast. Apart from that, the other fears like the fear of unfamiliarity, the fear of not being able to get home or even the fear to not being able to survive on the island actually already lowered the braveness of the child, thus allowing him to form even more fears and imagination. Hence, it was only the creepers and twigs who hung on the trees which triggered the child to think that it was a "beastie".
That is all for question 1. Please post your views and comments
Regards, Jie Hui
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 4, 2008 5:26:29 GMT -5
Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind? I think that the children on the island imagine monsters because of hallucinations they had after hearing a boy bringing it up during a meeting. The island triggered the fear of the beast as this was the place where the boys began to know of the other side that lurks within them all the while. The hunger for power and violence clearly proves to be more deeply rooted within them than the instinct of civilizations as they had descended into it so quickly and easily. Their behavior must have brought up the fear experienced by them towards the beastie as the traits of savagery symbolize that of the beast and made the smaller children imagine its presence. Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense? The rules Ralph makes does make sense as Ralph¡¯s main aim for everybody was blatant, and that was to improvise and retain the civilization they were brought up in until they were rescued due to Ralph¡¯s strong commitment to civilization and morality. However, some of the rules that Ralph introduced had originated from Piggy, like thinking of a method to increase the chances of being rescued, having a fire signal etc. When Piggy first suggested his idea to the children, he was being mocked and laughed at even he was holding the conch. Only when Ralph supported Piggy¡¯s idea was it then accepted reluctantly. This act also marks the first step when the instincts of civilization take a slight drop while savagery emerges silently and quickly within the group and tilts the balance of influence between civilization and savagery to its favour as it shows that the boys¡¯ instincts at this point already valued strength and charisma above intelligence and only accepted the proposal when the stronger and more charismatic Ralph voiced his opinions. In their eyes, although Piggy has a great deal to offer to re create the society they have lost; they still see him as a whiny and cowardly weakling and treated him with contempt and disrespect. However, although Ralph¡¯s suggestions at the assembly makes sense, at this point of the story, it is somewhat useless when the boys find it getting harder to adhere to the strict prohibition of civilization and start to crave for playing and satisfying their immediate desires, thus undermining their ability to act collectively. The boys see an assembly as something fun and for their entertainment as when it is over, all the things brought up were forgotten when they went on playing.
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 4, 2008 5:37:50 GMT -5
Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer.
At this stage of the novel, I would say that although there were slight conflicts between Jack and Ralph, they were not as serious as the conflicts in the later part of the story, where the fight for leadership turned violent.
Examples of slight conflicts were when Ralph was appointed the leader instead of Jack and this had really irritated him a lot as he felt that he should be the one elected not Ralph. However, Ralph conciliates Jack by appointing the leader of the hunters and the hostility between them smoothened. There were other minor conflicts here and there but none of them really contributed to the major conflict later in the story. The first major conflict experienced was when Jack and his team had neglected the fire when they were supposed to be tending to it and missed the opportunity to get rescued as Jack had taken a passion for hunting. This ended up in a heated argument between Jack and Ralph and Jack only apologized only when Ralph looked prepared to fight with Jack over it. At this point, Jack¡¯s feelings towards Ralph slowly changed to resentment.
The fire signal acted as a measurement to the connection the boys were to civilization and when it slowly died out, it also showed the amount of civilization that was left in them. Jack had also begun to take on the instincts of savagery and became violent and hungry for power in this part of the story and only thinks about hunting all day. These traits symbolize that of the beast that lurks within everyone and could have played a role in the hallucination within the boys regarding the beast thought to live on the island.
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 4, 2008 7:37:29 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I shall be expressing my opinions.
1. I agree with Jie Hui from 2C for question 1. I thought that he did a great job. I would also like to add on to his points. Due to the fact that the boys were stranded on a deserted island, it is natural to get frightened. Furthermore, some stories tell of people getting stranded on islands and seeing beasts/ghosts/ any kind of monsters. So, perhaps, due to fears and imaginations which were created by reading these types of stories/ other sources, the children imagine monsters. The island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind due the fact that he was separated from his family and did not have any 'comfort items' that most children his age would carry around to 'protect' them from 'monsters'. Hence, since he did not have any shield against his fears/imagination, he was naturally frightened and therefore had this idea of a 'Beastie'.
2. I felt that the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly made sense, because Ralph was trying to create the law and order that was in place in countries. Hence, Ralph was trying to create a moral society on the island in which similar to England's traditional society, in order to put in place law and order and he also introduced the rules because he wants impartiality and he also wants to create a platform where people voiced their opinions.
3. I agree with everyone's examples but I would like to add one of my own. There was one part where when everyone applauded Ralph during the assembly, Jack sneered at Ralph and 'showed that he too knew how to clap'. Sneered means a scornful facial expression characterized by a slight raising of one corner of the upper lip. Hence it could be seen that Jack was kind of irritated with Ralph.
Thank you.
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 4, 2008 8:01:41 GMT -5
Again, I agree with Wen Kang's view of Ralph was trying to create a moral society on the island to a certain extent. I think this is indeed a very valid reason due to Ralph's strong connection with civilization. However, I am afraid I might have to disagree with you again. You mentioned in your message that Ralph introduced the rules because he wants impartiality in question two. However, do you think that Ralph had demostrated any act of impartiality in any part of the story? It is known that whenever Piggy suggests something, it is often treated lightly by Ralph. For example, when Piggy suggested making a sun dial to tell the time, Ralph reacted with Sarcasm and caused Piggy to Misinterpret it as a friendly gesture. Thus I do not think that Ralph introduced the rules for impartiality but solely to retained the civilization they were brought up with. Thank you
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 4, 2008 8:38:42 GMT -5
Yes Alcander, thank you for commenting on my reasons. I would like to clarify what I mean by 'impartiality'. Perhaps I have used a wrong word which carried a wrong message. What I meant in 'impartiality' is that everyone gets a fair chance to speak. I think I have got 'impartial' and 'fair' mixed up because both of them have the same meanings but are used in different contexts. So sorry for the inconvienience caused. Ralph's rules that were implemented gave everyone a fair chance to speak, because if someone wanted to speak, the person was to be handed the conch, and then he could speak. It is similar to the 'raising your hand' rule in school where when you want to speak, you raise your hand and everyone listens to your idea and opinion. Hence, it shows that Ralph wanted proper law and order in the tribe (on the island). Although the idea was effective at first, it became rather ineffective when everyone became sick of the rules and 'mutinied'. However, that was not forseen by Ralph and it shows that though Ralph was a good leader and wanted the best for his tribe, he still did not think of everything to the rules. Thank you.
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Post by 2bmarcuschong03 on Apr 4, 2008 9:13:45 GMT -5
Hey all, I am here to express my views on these issues.
1)The island triggered the fear of the beast as this was the place where the boys began to know of the other side that lurks within them all the while---savagery,give in to base instincts of blood lust and barbarism. The imaginary beast that frightens all the boys stands for the primal instinct of savagery that exists within all human beings. The boys are afraid of the beast, but only Simon reaches the realization that they fear the beast because it exists within each of them.
As the boys grow more savage, their belief in the beast grows stronger. By the end of the novel, the boys are leaving it sacrifices and treating it as a totemic god. The boys’ behavior is what brings the beast into existence, so the more savagely the boys act, the more real the beast seems to become.
Meanwhile, the beast the young boy claims to have seen also emerges as an important symbol in the novel. At this point, the beast is merely an idea that frightens some of the boys. But as the novel progresses, all the boys tacitly accept the beast’s existence. The beast comes to represent the instincts of power, violence, and savagery that lurk within each human being.
2) I felt that the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly made sense, wanting to maintain law and order, creating a "system" for adherence to the disciplined behavior of civilization. The boys succumb to their instinctive drive to play and gratify their immediate desires undermines their ability to act collectively.
Ralph, the protagonist of the novel, stands for civilization, morality, and leadership, while Jack, the antagonist, stands for the desire for power, selfishness, and amorality. Piggy represents the scientific and intellectual aspects of civilization, as his glasses—a symbol of rationality and intellect—enable the boys to light fires.
Already the boys’ savage instincts lead them to value strength and charisma above intelligence: although Piggy has a great deal to offer the boys’ fledgling civilization, they see him as a whiny weakling and therefore despise him and refuse to listen to him, even when his ideas are good. For instance, when Piggy suggests that the boys find a way to improve their chances of being rescued, they ignore him; only when the stronger and more charismatic Ralph suggests the same thing do they agree to make the signal fire.
Regards, Marcus Chong 2B03
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Post by 2bmarcuschong03 on Apr 4, 2008 9:14:39 GMT -5
Hey all, expressing my views on Q3.
3) Yes, there are hints of a possible conflict between Ralph and Jack at this stage though not as significant as in the later parts of the story.
The first conflict experienced was when Jack and his team had neglected the fire when they were supposed to be tending to it. This ended up in a heated argument between Jack and Ralph and Jack only apologized only when Ralph wanted to fight with Jack over it. At this point, we can see that there is a sense of resentment growing within Jack towards Ralph.
Next, they didn't adhere to Ralph's orders such as the part when Ralph had suggested a fire, the other boys went over-excited about it. Also, at this point, Jack clamored among them and shouted "Come on! Follow me!" although Ralph still held the conch and hadn't finished speaking. Ralph shouting for silence actually went to waste showed the possible conflicts between them.
Moreover, there is a scene when a small boy said to have spotted snakes luring around. Upon hearing this, Ralph stressed that it was just a nightmare or just anything other harmless thing but was mistook as snakes, so as not to make the others feel afraid. But Jack actually said "Ralph's right of course, There isn't a snake thing. But if there was a snake, we'd hunt it and kill it. We're going to hunt pigs to get meat. And we'll look for the snakes too". Again Jack have posed his stand that he will not be listening to Ralph's orders and just have to somewhat disagree and annoy him in any ways he could find. This also showed the possible conflict between them.
Regards, Marcus Chong 2B03
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 4, 2008 9:25:39 GMT -5
I agree with Marcus's point that as the novel progresses, all the boys tacitly accept the beast's existence.
I think that this also reflects how religion and superstition can be manipulated mercilessly by the wrong people as an instrument of power. In the later part of the novel, it is known that Jack rules his tribe with an iron fist, tying and beating boys for no reason.
Jack's hunger for power thus makes him learn how to use the boys' fear of the imagined beast to control their behavior, making them abide to his rule in the later part of the story. Thus, the beast's imagined existance by the boys in a way helped Jack to strengthen his ruling over the boys.
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Post by 2cjamesquah28 on Apr 4, 2008 9:50:18 GMT -5
Hi all,
I will attempt to answer question 1 now.
Question 1
Why do you think the children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a "Beastie" in the small boy's mind?
Firstly, i would like to state that these little children were actually in a new unfamiliar surroundings with forests, bugs and animals they have never seen before. It is only natural from a child's mentality to imagine monsters.
Secondly, i would also like to agree with Jie Hui that the children lack a sense of security and protection. The children, mostly the littleluns hailed from England with the rest of the older children. However, it is a well known fact that little children always tend to dream about "terrifying things (nightmares)" as their imaginations have yet to mature. This can be supported in page 47,
"Laughingm Ralph looked for confirmation round the ring of faces. The older boys agreed; but here and there among the little ones was the dubiety that required more than rational assurance."
Additionally, the "littleluns" were barely 6 years old. This meant that, given their tender age, without parental assurance in this sense, they were bound to feel unsafe and imagine all sorts of things. However, even with older children like Ralph and Jack around, it did not make much of a difference as the littleluns did not completely recognise the older children as people that have the same "reliability and traits" as an adult.
Also, i support Jie Hui's point of the children having only nightmares as they only " saw the beastie at night, and when it was morning, it was replaced by ropes and vines hanging from the trees". This further supports our points about the children being vulnerable to their own imaginations rather than the snake being real itself.
Regards, James
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Post by 2Climdejun18 on Apr 4, 2008 10:26:18 GMT -5
1) Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind?
Hello, (lol, you all spam like crazy on this board for what, spammers ;P so bad-- i was in EP3 o.O SPAMMERS [alcander like got no EP3 or life like that])
oh ya, now- i'd be attempting Question 1.
Firstly, The sense of no adult's accompany or saftey were putting the group of children in a situation where they think that they themselves are vulnerable to any situation and would jump to any conclusion. As we know, the children's mind were twisted by the adults to make them believe that "creatures" do exist, same as what stories and fairytales always depicts. They hold strong to their believe that such things do exist, under a perspective when they are not yet able to be mature enough to analyze situations properly. Thus, they are easily being fooled or imagine that there are monsters on the island. Each disappearance or action that they see which made them feel uncomfortable made them conclude that there was a "monster" on the island in this second chapter.
As i mentioned above, there was no one to protect them or even fend them, thus the children had to fend for themselves and depend on their unity to be well assured of their chances of living and being rescued in the end. "monsters" are just things that frighten (but maybe there was, there was), being the people alone on the island, they were unfarmilar about the island and bringing in a state of fear and confusement. Thus, there were being lead into believing what a random person said during the meeting. They are concluded to be children trying to overcome fear and uncertaincy on the island, and yet stil under the mentality that danger lurks in the night (where everything is so dark and frightening, thick forests etc, made the mood look more "dangerous" and they were thus afraid).
IN LOTF, it explains that the children believe that the monster (if there was one) transforms and take shapes of "ropes in the trees and hung in the branches" ,"come back tonight" "in the dark". Elaborating, in my opinon such a view voiced out by the Littlun about the monster is due to the fact that they were getting "fearful" of the island, as they progress with their life on the island, thus this marks a difference in the symbolism and contradictory statements. (I mean like why would a beastie transform itself in the day and hunt at night, and the littlun (being small in size) was naturally scared of almost everything. (they should have thought: was that source realiable/useful) do an analysis in the history format we drill thorugh, i guess you'd find another reason to support my answer here.
D: It's about quality not quantity of posts.ryuto stop smiting me lah. DE JUN.
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Post by 2cpekjiehui27 on Apr 4, 2008 23:02:13 GMT -5
Hi people once again.
I shall post my view on question 2.
2) Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense?
I felt that the rules Ralph introduced was mainly to maintain law and order. The only rule introduced mainly was that one could only speak when he had the conch. Ralph was a person who wanted and tried his best to look into everyone's views, as he was a very democratic leader, unlike Jack who was somewhat more autocratic. Hence, the rules would also allow him to more detailedly look into and consider everyone's opinion and point of view.
Also, backing Wen Kang from 2B's point that Ralph wanted impartiality, it was only sensible to have everyone talk and others listening. However, Piggy's authority to speak was always ignored as he was the ostracized party. Nevertheless, Ralph's rules still made sense. After all, they were all still small children who were still studying, thus this rule would not be too childish, or too restricted in the sense to expect them to be able to maintain order through self discipline. Hence, Ralph's rules made sense.
Regards, Jie Hui
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Post by 2bongyuhao17 on Apr 5, 2008 12:40:50 GMT -5
Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a "Beastie" in the small boy's mind? The little children have been exposed to cartoons which have those monsters. Hence, as they continue watching, the children would start to develope their own imaginations of monsters. In the end, they will think that all these monsters are part of the earth. This is because the island is isolated. There seems to be nobody except the boys. Monsters have been stereotyped as mysterious creatures who love concealing themselves in abandoned places. Therefore, the little boys would relate their current predicament to those in the cartoons and believe that "Beastie" lives on the island. This triggered off their fear as their impression of a monster was scary.
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