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Post by 2bongyuhao17 on Apr 5, 2008 12:43:18 GMT -5
3) Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer. There doesnt seem to be any possible conflict between them. Jack even supported Ralph's view of the need for hunters and volunteered to lead the hunters. Once when both Jack and Ralph were caught on a limb together, they grinned at each other and even had a friendly conversation. Jack also assisted Ralph in silencing the crowd when Ralph wanted to speak with the conch in his hands.
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 5, 2008 19:04:52 GMT -5
I would like to contradict Yu hao's view that there doesn't seem to be any possible conflict between Jack and Ralph.
Although there isn't any very heated arguement between them yet at this point of the story, however it is wrong to say that there were no conflicts between them. For example, there was a slight arguement when Jack had hesitated killing the pig, allowing it to run away and had Ralph challenging him why didn't he kill it. These minor conflicts, could have also contributed to the major conflict in the later part of the story as the hostility between them slowly accumulated.
Thus, I feel that it is wrong to say that there was no hints of conflicts between Jack and Ralph at this stage of the novel.
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 6, 2008 0:11:08 GMT -5
Firstly, i'd like to comment on yuhao's comments on the stereotypical thinking of the "littluns" on the island. Yes, his point does make sense , but to a certain extent. When did this incident happen? It it had happened before the advent of the television, this comment would be out of point.
Anyway, i'd like comment on Ms Ngo's first question: Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind?
Firstly, there were no adults on the island. The children were abandoned on the island all by themsleves. This reality could lead to hallucination, where one creates an unreal images of horror when exhausted, traumatic or in this context, frightened. To children, adults are their guardian Angels, watching over them relentlessly day after day, protecting them from harm's way.
Next, the stereotypical mindset of the littluns. Most horror buffs would definitely agree with the fact that horror stories are commonly associated with darkness, deserted islands etc. In Lord of the Flies, the boys were indeed stranded on an island and when darkness came, the littuns started to imagine things (hallucinate).
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Post by 2bongyuhao17 on Apr 6, 2008 4:41:01 GMT -5
Q2) The rules that Ralph had set down made sense. As British boys, during that period, Britain was widely regarded as one of the major powers in the world. They needed the rules to prevent chaos among them. Moreover, the rules would serve as a protection for the littleuns from the bigger boys. The littleuns would be able to express their opinions without fear of being shot down by the big boys. Besides, being in a place without adults to tell the boys what they should or should not do, Ralph needed rules to control the order among the boys. Moreover, Ralph had to ensure that those boys were safe and sound until someone comes and rescues them(however, this did not happen.)
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Post by 2Climdejun18 on Apr 6, 2008 8:43:52 GMT -5
YuHao: you are not supposed to use Marquee (read the guidelines)
-- moving on, i'd attack on Question 3.
Hints of Conflict.
In this chapter, we can both see that Jack was being irresponsible to leave the rescue fire (for smoke signal) unattended and went to find food to hunt. It was crucial for them to produce those smoke signals since a ship went by. I believe that there was conflicts between Jack and Raplh due to the fact that Jack hesitated killing the pig and thus the whole group could not have their dinner. And the possible conflict that started is also because of the fire on the mountain.
Yes, Yu Hao- I appreciate your point brought up "Jack assisted Ralph in silencing the crowd", though they are united, it doesn't mean that there isn't conflicts at this part of the chpater, have you forgotten about the small conflict about the hesitation of hunting/killing of pigs.
But it did not mean that these small conflicts would continue to bring problems that caused the major argument and conflict, and thus they were broken into two different tribes. (there were reasons like "jack was more domineering" as we can see that he wanted to be chief in the first place, and that he thinks he has more potential being chief.) not because of the fact that these small conflicts that led to the bigger one, yes, i'm against your view on this alcander.
So, Yes or No, it's up for you to decide. But there was evidently and significantly minor conflicts in chapter 2.
Cherrios, De Jun
--- p.s. can people please Sign Off like read the General Rules Message, it feels so weird with people not signing off. like why is the forum becoming more and more informal? soon it'd evolve to like 3 sentences long answers then "nothingness' due to the informal setting that more and more people think this forum is going to get.
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 7, 2008 1:54:06 GMT -5
I think that everyone has the right to say what they want, no matter how long the post is, at least the person bothers to write on the forum right? I am not saying that people who write short sentences in the post are wrong in that sense, but maybe the people who supposedly 'spam' have nothing to write, because everything is already posted up there. So maybe we should change the marking system of Ace to the quality of posts, and not the quantity. Thank you.
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Post by 2cangrayyan03 on Apr 7, 2008 6:07:30 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts: 1) It had probably been because of the fact that the little one probably brought it up, causing the rest to fear, although Ralph insisted that there wasn't any (p. 48), most likely in an attempt to reassure all the people that nothing would happen to them, as his wish for everyone is , "Until the grown-ups come and fetch us we'll have fun" (p 45). The factor that made the beast fearful was probably the fact of the environment they were in, no adults, no one else except them, which made it very probable that "The beast" could be hiding somewhere on this island. Also, the fear was even more intense when the little' un with the marked face disappeared (p. 60), which made matters worse, which affected most of the little 'uns. Of course as one reads on, one would know that the beast is not physical, but "a beast in each of them" perhaps. Of course, this "beast" turned them from civilized boys to savagers, hunting for meat , and of course, with probably each conflict and trouble and worry, the "beast" grows stronger by the day, making the boys behave more like savagers. 2) The rules that Ralph introduce in this chapter proved to make sense, and its overall objective is to maintain order within the group. In this case, a rule he proposed is the fact that if someone needs to speak, he would need to hold the conch, and that person shall not be interrupted except by Ralph. (p. 43-44) . Jack , being slightly more violent then Ralph, then proposes that if someone were to break the rules, he would be beaten up, probably harmful to most people, although Jack liked it. The rules proposed by Ralph is a way of maintaining order during an assembly, also to maintain "peace" between each other, which is obviously not the case between Jack and Piggy (pg. 54-55). Of course, Ralph needed the co-operation with everyone to be rescued from the island, which makes the rules necessary to be in practice. However, some suggestions had already been put forward by Piggy, but no one took notice thanks to the mindset of Piggy being fat and a weakling. With two hearts, one full of compassion and innocence, and the other filled with blood and meat, the rules were in the end not effective and did not serve its purpose, and most , or some of them, could have forgotten about the rules, and treated everything as if they were nonsense, and continued with their own stuff, like playing, but with the need of food, and the frequency of "pigs" brought up at the start of this chapter (p. 43) made the darker side of the heart stronger than the other, resulting in a bunch of savagers. 3) Throughout the story Ralph and Jack had plenty of conflicts here and there, and I believe, that this chapter marks the start of it. Firstly , the most obvious conflict in this case would be the one where Ralph was arguing that there was "no beast on this island", after Jack repeats that he would actually go and check about that. (All on p. 48) . After that Ralph stated how they would get rescued, bringing some sense of hope, and while everyone was applauding, Jack clapped while smirking, showing that he was actually unsatisfied that Ralph gained the support of so many others. One thing that I presume would be that both Ralph and Jack has conflicts throughout the whole story as they both were leaders in one way or another, and each wanted the support of the population, in this case, the group of survivors. Naturally, as they supported one, the other was jealous. You would ask why they had never been supported together before. Firstly, one should note that in this chapter their views were contrasting, Jack obsessed with killing and working with his hunters, and Ralph the leader trying to keep things in place and maintain peace. As such, sensible ones would follow Ralph's way of keeping order at first, but Jack's seem more "action-packed", interesting little 'uns, and thus comes the beast following them throughout the story, and I disagreeumption here is that the "beast" comes from Jack, due to his arrogance at first , perhaps.Thus, there was conflict everywhere, but since this is the start of it, it wasn't that intense, and only to a small extent did this actually happen, although it led to future ones. Here is the end of this post, and feel free to comment on any part you think that is wrong. Regards, Ray Yan
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Post by 2chuyongda10 on Apr 7, 2008 8:01:30 GMT -5
Hi all, this is my point of view for question 1.
1) Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind?
The children started to imagine monsters because perhaps they are free from the world in which was controlled by adults. Thus, their imaginations run wild. Furthermore, their imagination was "diverted" to beasts and monsters instead of some happy fairy tale creatures because they had some fear in them as they were marooned on a deserted island. Thus, the children imagined monsters because of their fear and wild imagination.
At this point, the beast is merely an idea that frightens some of the boys. But as the novel progresses, all the boys tacitly accept the beast¡¯s existence. The beast comes to represent the instincts of power, violence, and savagery that lurk within each human being.
Regards, Yongda
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Post by 2Climdejun18 on Apr 7, 2008 9:09:32 GMT -5
HUZI! I agree with you on this point, yes the monster was just something crafted by the savegery the boys on the island had instinctively adapted to, and evoked much violence on the supposedly known as "paradise" at the start where the whole island was clear and serene, untouched by humans. From the other chapters of the story, Jack's savergery is evoked from their songs they sing whilst hunting with his pack of what known as "butchers" -"Slit the pigs throat and ..." which clearly shows that there a new influx of sense of the need to kill, to hunt for living things to consume was truly a great change from their own "graceful British selves" into "barbaric children savaging for food" The children, too used to this calamity of the island starts to think about beasts, adding on they are not under their protection of their parents or any adults it is thus natural for them to feel afraid, thus they have to go along with the situation: violence, savagery, was a necessity they had to equip themselves with, which the tribe of them under the care of Ralph accepts this fact but works on a common goal to get themselves rescued soon. thus, i can be assured that i'm standing on HUZI's side : on stating that the beast represents the instincts of power, violence, and savagery that lurk within each human being.Let's turn the radio down and Cheers, De Jun
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 7, 2008 9:52:30 GMT -5
Hi Dejun, as much as you are entitled to your own views, every one of us here does have our own rights to alternative opinions too. This forum is a platform for free discussion of the text, not for anyone to hurl personal insults. By the way, I do have a very active training schedule 4 times a week for my sport, not as what you have described ¡°got no EP3 or life like that¡±. My time is too precious to be spent on spamming. By the way, if you care enough to read through the forum, when was my post ever ¡°one to three sentences, finish¡± as alleged by you?
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Post by 2Cyangyi32 on Apr 9, 2008 6:52:57 GMT -5
Hey All,
I will be doing an analysis for Question 1.
Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered a fear of a "beastie" in the small boy's mind?
Firstly, I think that children's minds are undeveloped, and not mature enough to logically straighten out images that they see. When a six-year old kid sees a shadow of himself in a room, he would be more inclined to cry "MONSTER!" rather than to question the validity of his opinion. As we grow older, experience accumulates in life, and we start to apply logic and common sense in activities that would otherwise have us shouting "MONSTER!" and "GHOST!" at every turn.
Also, I feel that in an unfamiliar, though not necessarily unwelcome environment, a child's mind might be set to thinking wildly. I feel that at a young age, children's imaginations are very active, on account of them having no worries in life. As the proverb goes, "We fear the unknown when we are scared of the dark", I attribute the small boy's imagination and fear of a "beastie" to his fear of the unknown on the island. If we put ourselves in the boy's shoes, this statement is actually quite plausible. Imagine a small boy, stranded on an unknown island, with unfamiliar surroundings and in a strange environment. In situations such as these, the human mind would be set to jump wildly at every turn, thus inducing the image of a "beastie" in the boy's mind, which might have otherwise been just a shadow of a oddly shaped pile of logs.
I've finished my analysis, please read and comment. ^^
Cheers, Yang Yi
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Post by 2akennethleong14 on Apr 10, 2008 2:48:44 GMT -5
1) Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind? I think that the little children imagine monsters because children usually have a wild imagination. As they are still young, they do not know how to analyses situations and when they see things that are new to them or unfamiliar, they usually have a habit of calling it a monster. Another reason could also be that the children are exposed to a new environment and with no adults to look after them, thus they might feel scared and even the rustle of the leaves might scare them. The children are unsure of what is on the island and they possibly fear that they never be rescued 2) Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense? Yes they do. The rules that Ralph introduces try to make them more orderly so that they were not appear barbaric and it is easier to control the whole group. For example, the rule that they must raise their hands if they wish to speak is to prevent everybody from talking at one time which will appear very confusing. 3) Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer. Yes there is. The Beastie thing, Ralph insisted there wasn’t but jack said there might be a possibility of a beast. Ralph wanted to convince the children that there wasn’t any beast on the island so as to prevent fear from spreading to everyone and everybody could concentrate on what they were supposed to be doing and not wasting time thinking of the beast, however, Jack went to say that he will check it out which means that Jack thinks that there might be a monster and Ralph felt that he should not have done so as this would strike fear among the little’uns. Jack also disobeyed the rule that he must have the conch to speak and led the group away before Ralph finished talking. This annoyed Ralph greatly and he felt that jack was in the wrong. Ralph and Jack both had leadership skills and furthermore, Jack had suggested that there would be a chief and initiated a vote. However, he lost and he may be feeling jealous and wanted to start a new group which he would become leader (which he did later on). They both had different opinions of what needed to be done and this caused conflict between these two.
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 10, 2008 5:22:04 GMT -5
Hey all,
I will be attempting to answer question 1.
Question 1
Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind?
The imaginary beast that frightens all the boys, in my opinion, stands for the primal instinct of savagery that exists within all human beings.
The boys are afraid of the beast, but only Simon reaches the realization that they fear the beast because it exists within everyone of them.
As the boys grow to become more savage, their belief in the beast grows stronger.
By the end of the novel, the boys are leaving it sacrifices and treating it as an important god.
Hence, the boys’ behaviours is actually the factor which brings the beast into existence, so the more savagely the boys act, the more real the beast seems to become.
In my opinion, the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the boys' mind also because there were no adults on the island(other than the pilot, who was sick) to guide the young children along and to give them a sense of security.
Hence, without the sense of security and guidance from adults, who are more mature than young children, the children tend to imagine things.
The situation will get from bad to worse and the existence of the beast will seem more real, since there are no adults to stop them from believing that there was a beast on the island. This is also because they were scared as they had no sense of security from adults.
This is all I have for the second part of question 1.
Thanks
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 10, 2008 8:00:50 GMT -5
I would like to comment on Terre's post regarding the sentence" In my opinion, the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the boys' mind also because there were no adults on the island(other than the pilot, who was sick) to guide the young children along and to give them a sense of security." in which Terre had made. I will like to remind Terre that there are several events and issues in the movie screening that is different from the actual book we are tested on. Thus, your claim that the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the boys' mind also because there were no adults on the island(other than the pilot, who was sick) to guide the young children along and to give them a sense of security is only true to a certain extent as in the actual novel, the poliot was dead from the beginning and there were no adults accompanying them right from the start of the novel. Thank You.
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 10, 2008 8:35:50 GMT -5
Ok, i could have been wrong about the presence of the pilot.
But, anyway, the fear of a 'beastie' has been triggered because the children had no sense of security and there were no adults to relieve them from their fear.
Thanks for reminding me.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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