Chapter 2: Fire on the Mountain

[2b23kevin]

1) The boys were probably told bedtimes stories before they went to bed before the plane crash. So when they were young, the imagined how the monsters in the stories they were told looked like with the descriptions they were told. When they arived on the island and in the night saw certain things, this probably reminded them of how the monsters in the stories looked like and triggered their imagination, making them think that there was a monster there. As the island was unfamiliar to them, they did not know about the creatures living on it and so when one of them suggested that there was a monster and gives evidence of its existance, some of them would agree with him for various reasons and continue to give evidence that a monster exists. Some boys, after hearing all these pieces of "evidence" start to notice these pieces of "evidence" and slowly, more boys would be convinced that a beast really does exist on the island.

2) The rules Ralph gives do make sense. Having fun was an short-term goal to satisfy them and make them while happy while they were on the island. To balance the goal setting, Ralph gave them a long-term goal, to be resuced. Although they wanted to make full use of their time on the island and be happy, they needed something to control them and not let them indulge too much in their merry-making, making them lazy people who do not want to work. This somehow links to the civilised idea of having adequte amounts of play and work.

Thanks for reading my post

[2c06wengsiang]

Dear all, I am here to answer question 2.

3) Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer.

I beleive that at this point of the story, there is only a slight conflict between Jack and Ralph. As can be seen from the passage, Ralph states again and again that there was no Beast on the island to try to calm the littleuns down. However, Jack messes things up when he says that they would confirm that there is no beast when they go hunting the next time. I think that this shows that Jack is purposely pitting himself against Ralph, as he is challenging his authority by doubting his words. Also, when Ralph mentions a fire, Jack immediately rouses the boys to follow him to make a fire. This shows that Jack was trying to compete with Ralph for the position of Chief, as this shows that he can also lead the boys.

Cheers!
Weng Siang

[2cjaredkoh13]

1) Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind?

I think the children imagine monsters because they are new to the island, hence the islands look forbidding to them. Another reason might be that the author could be hinting that savagery could follow nasty thoughts.

2) Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense?

The rules Ralph made do not really make sense. Though it is true that some rules, like the person with the conch has the right to speak, is similar to the adult world, the children may have to alter some rules as they are no longer in a civilised society, they are in the wild.

[2cmarcusyeo33]

Question 3:
Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer.

Ralph is clearly against the idea of a beastie. “There isn’t a beastie!” “There isn’t a snake!” Ralph keeps repeating this line throughout that discussion. Ralph though later also indulges in the hunt of the pig, he still is able to relate back to the confinements of civilization. Ralph still realizes the importance of rescue over hunting. And this scene where Ralph refuses the idea of a beastie shows the same clinging to civilization, when he criticizes hunting, preferring to do things for the greater goods such as “building shelters”.

Jack though acknowledging of the fact that the beast was probably non-existent, he also brings in idea of hunting the beast down. “Ralph’s right of course. There isn’t a snake-thing. But if there was a snake, we’d hunt it and kill it.”| “We’ll make sure when we go hunting” His bloodlust is shown by him, unconsciously. Jack indulges in the idea of hunting because of the thrill and his bloodlust. He starts to show how he views hunting and having fun over everything else in this discussion of the beastie.

The view points of both Ralph and Jack are clearly the opposite, and this shows the differences in their ideas and characteristics. Ralph values rescue and the preservation of social order and civilized living, while Jack cares only for hunting and the satisfying of his thirst for blood. The conflict between their mindsets are shown clearly, and this suggests the arguments between the two that would naturally happen later in the story.

Marcus Yeo 2C

[2cmarcusyeo33]

Question 1:
Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind?


The fear of the beast first brought by littlun with distinctive birthmark. The beast first comes about probably because of the slow realization of the innate evil in each of them. The beast very clearly symbolizes the traits of savagery, which the boys gradually show in this chapter. And because the boys start to realize the savagery and evil all of them have, these traits of evil, are conjured up in the mind of the small boys as a beastie. The boys fear the beastie, because it is still a mystery, and the fear of the unknown intensifies the fear each of them feels. Also, because they are unable to comprehend that the beastie was actually the evil side of themselves, they fear it, thinking the beast as something real and in a concrete form. Hence the beastie is the externalization of the boys fears. The boys make the beast even more real in their minds by their acts of savagery and tribal instincts. They offer sacrifices to the beast, treating it as a totemic god. This creates the existence of the beast. And the more savage the act, the more alive the beast seems to be.

2) Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense?

Ralph’s rules does make sense to maintain the civilized state of the boys, preventing savagery from occurring. The use of a “hands up” system, gives already social order. As the boys would be able to act according to rules that are already existent in a civilized society, the boys are able to maintain order and discipline. As Ralph’s tries to create the similar structures of a civilized society on the island, in this point in time, the boys still adhere to the rules of a civilized society. By implementing a system that requires the boys to follow rules, despite the absence of adults, the makeshift civilization, allows the boys to continue to live with the basic social instincts imparted to them since childhood as the system of the conch serves a reminder of their social instincts. Hence, it makes sense as the rules ensure that the boys still live about in an orderly and civilized fashion.

Marcus Yeo 2C

[2chongseng19]

hello all,
Question 2 : Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense?

I agree with what Marcus said, the purpose of the rules are to maintain the civilised way the boys do back in England: only the person holding the conch shell can speak, and the boys are to do their "business" behind the bathing pools. Those are the civilised manners,like what we do, hence the rules may make sense as the boys are civilised people, and they should be the same anywhere. However, they are on an island, totally isolated from the society and there are no adults to discipline them, so the rules would be pointless as whatever they do they would not be punished. The island is a perfect backdrop for them to be savage and do whatever they like, so the rules may not make sense as well.

[2candrewwong01]

Hi people¡­ I will be attempting Question 1 now¡­.
1) Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind?

Ok, firstly, children often have nightmares and are rather common. When they are young and especially at night, they usually lose their sense of security and this young boy, Phil is no exception. When children start losing their sense of security, they are usually susceptible to hallucinations or mindless imaginations. And when they imagine something horrible and bad, it is usually etched in their minds and is quite difficult to get rid of it unless they face their fears or imaginations.

This young boy might only be a vessel that the beast is using at first to fore warn everyone. But what exactly is the beast?? The beast is used by Golding to represent the primal instinct of savagery that exists within everyone of us. And this savage instinct feeds on the behavior of the boys and their perception of it. So, the more savagely the boys act, the more real the beast seems to come. This is my opinion. So in this case, why does Phil become aware of it so quickly? Basically, Golding uses this impression Phil has to have a foreshadowing effect, that some ¡®Beastie¡¯ is coming to haunt the boys but what they do not know is that this beast is actually what lives inside all of them. So the beast probably unlocks himself within Phil just a little bit first and purposely does so in a littlun so that he won¡¯t be so credible and no one would believe him. Then, the beast would unlock itself within everyone of them unless that individual, for example, Ralph still has the restraints of civilization inside him. Otherwise, the beast will destroy each person from the inside out, taking complete control of him and destroying all civilization and implanting savagery into the hearts of the children. This is what I think.

Feel free to voice your opinions.

[2bgweeyongxiang7]

Hi all,

I'm here to post my answr to question 2.

2) Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense?

Yes, i feel that the rules Ralph makes makes sense. In the novel, Ralph represents civilisation, and once again in whats he does - setting rules, we understand this. What Ralph basically wants to acheive is to set up a system in which how things work. 1 of the rules - raising up your hands to talk, shows that Ralph wants order and civilisation by stating that no one is to interupt. Hence i agree that the rules he introduces makes sense.

That's all for question 2.

Regards,
Yong Xiang 2B07

[2bgweeyongxiang7]

Hi all,

I'm here to post on question 3.

3) Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer.

Yes, i think there are hints of conflict between these 2 characters.

Firstly, when Ralph was setting rules, Jack kept on interupting. But, this isn't my point as there wasn't any conflict yet. The conflict comes in when the littlun says he saw a "beastie". When Ralph keeps arguing that there isn't any snake, people keep on interupting. When Jack states that even if there's a beast, he and his hunters will kill it if they see it while hunting and this makes Ralph annoyed.

Secondly, when Ralph states that a fire should be made, Jack interupts when Ralph has not finished speaking and brings the boys away. This is another point which shows the conflict between them.

That's all for question 3.

Regards,
Yong Xiang 2B07

[2bterrechua29]

Hi all,

I would like to post some comments regarding Yong Xiang's view.

Yong Xiang said that Ralph represents civilisation.

However, i disagree his view to a certain extent.

In my opinion, Ralph only represents civlisation a certain extent.

In this chapter and some other parts of the novel, Ralph do represent or shows traits of civilisation. However, in some other parts of the novel, Ralph turns slightly to savagery. For example, in further parts of the novel, in chapter 7 or 8(sorry, can't remember), Ralph is eager to kill a pig and even offers to be the one to hunt down the sow. Furthermore, Ralph even joins Jack's dance nad participates in the killing of Simon. The situations i mention above show that Ralph turns slightly to savagery and hence, Ralph cannot be considered as the one who represent civilisation in LOTF.

Instead, in my opinion, the person who clearly represents civilisation is Piggy.

Cheers,
Terre Chua
2B29

[2balcanderseah01]

I agree with Terre's view that Ralph was civilizaed to a certain extent. Take for example when they missed their first chance to be rescued. Ralph was frustrated enough to fight with Jack over and shouted at Jack.

Although Ralph was not entirely at fault as he had the right to be angry, however the way Ralph spoke showed traits of savagery. Ralph's traits of savagery can be further elaborated by Terre's example of Ralph taking part in the murder of Simon.

I agree that the most civilized boy on the isalnd was Piggy. When he was killed, the conch was also shattered with him, signifying that the lost of Piggy, the scientific side of civilization also symbolised the total loss of civilization throughout the isalnd.

Thank You

[2amarcusgohsy12]

Hi all

Firstly on the beast. Probably, the littleuns were pampered at home and whenever they need to go somewhere dark, someone will accompany them. However on the island, no one accompanies them. Thus, because of the fear they have of dark and lonliness in the forest, they probably thought a beast was following them when maybe only a rat just ran throught the grass behind.

Secondly on the rules Ralph set. I think it is definitely relevant. Since with the rules Jack and his gang were already so wild, if there isn't, I can't imagine how the island will be. Probably it will become a place for fun and violence. Furthermore, rules are very important. Without them, nothing can be done well since anything a person wants to do is not wrong.

Thirdly on hints of possible conflict. Yes there is when Jack let out the fire and Ralph was blaming him. This shows that Jack Jack is a potential "neglecter" and Ralph do not tolerate it, since any mistake made ont he island will affect the children from going home. Thus, this is a hint on the conflict at the later part of the novel.

Marcus Goh

[2b19qiyun]

(3)
There are hints of a possible conflict when Ralph stated that "sooner or later, we shall be rescued", all the boys clapped. Jack then smirked and showed that "he too knew how to clap". Jack wants the boys on the island to admire him, but Ralph had taken all the attention instead, and so it makes Jack jealous and might leads to a future conflict.

Thx,
RQY

[2climshengyang20]

Hi guys,

I will like to attempt question 3.
3) Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer.

There are some obvious conflicts in the chapter between Ralph and Jack.

Firstly, when a littlun complained that there is a beastie, Ralph kept repeating "But there isn't a beastie!", while Jack said "but if there is a snake we'd hunt and kill it" and "we'll make sure when we go hunting". This is the first sign of their conflict. By saying all those, Jack wanted to undermine Ralph's leadership and Ralph felt defeated at that moment.

Secondly, conflict was developed when Jack immediately lead the boys to gather the firewood to create the fire on the mountain right after Ralph announced his decision. From this situaiton, we can see that Jack was trying to attain a leadership role too - by leading the boys away without Ralph's approval.

thirdly, conflict was also developed when Jack said "Conch doesn't count on the mountain". this shows Jack's disregard to the conch. Ralph countered by saying "The same up here as down there", trying to assert authority and undermine Jack's authority.

In conclusion, conflict was developed when both Ralph and Jack tried to assert authority over the boys in different ways and both tried to undermine each others' authority.

ShengYang

[2btanzhirong25]

Here are my comments. Thanks.

1) There are many reasons why the children on the island will start imagining beasts. As they are kids and their minds have not really matured yet, they will often imagine things from the old fairy tales and stories that they had read. They mind are still young to be able to look and think properly whether what they imagine is possible. I believe that when we were young, we have heard a lot of ghost and monster stories before. Often, when we are sleeping at night, we will start to imagine them appearing in our room. Similarly, the littlun in the book might have read such stories before and as he was scared and afraid while sleeping on the island at night, he started imagining beasts appearing. As the rest of the littuns are paraniod and also a little afraid, when they heard about this, their imagination started running wild too,as they are unable to interpret and analysis that all of these is impossible to happen, being young kids.

Another reason why the island triggered the fear of a beast is because of the fact that they arealone on the island, and there are no adults there that can help to reassure them that there was nothing wrong. Their parents were not there, no one was there to protect them, to help them in case of any troubles. Thus, being young kids, they will feel afraid and scared as they are all along on tht island, a place that they are not familar with and a place that could possibly house the monsters. Because of all these, they will start to imagine the impossible (Such as the beasts etc). Notice that they will only imagine the beasts at night, the time when they are feeling most worried and also afraid.

2) Yes, the rules that ralph made in the assembly made sense as they were introduced for many other reasons. For example, the rules that ralph inrroduced are that the one holding the conch is able to speak and the "toilet" is behind the rocks etc. There are nothing unreasoinable or wrong about all of these rules. These rules are not uncommon and can be found in our society. Thus, they make sense. Ralph introduces these rules for many good reasons. firstly, he wanted to make sure that there is law and order happenning on that island, and there will not be any chaos on the island. Examples of such rules are that those holding the conch can speak. Wihout these rules, the situation will be very messy. Another reason why Ralph introduces these rules is to follow the society and the life that they previously experienced in England and also make sure that the boys will remain civilised as they were in the past and not to become that savage (Which still happens in the end.) Such rules include they must only pee behind the rocks, which is a civilised behaoviour instead of peeing every where. Lastly, the rules that Ralph make makes sense as some rules are also intended to help them get rescue from the outside world.

3) There is already hints of some conflicts that are going to happen.For instance, in the first chapter, Jack is already slightly annoyed and also jealous that Ralph was elected leader instead of him. because of this jealousy, a future conflict might happen, and this is one hint to show us. Another hint of a future conflict is that when a littlun claimed that there is a beast, Jack replied by saying that if there was really a beast, they do not have to worry, as the hunters will help them to kill it. This clearly contridicts Ralph, and Ralph is actually quite annoyed and angry with Jack because of this. Lastly, when Ralph suggested to the rest that they should build a fire, Jack immediately asked the group to follow him and lead them, lefting only Ralph and Piggy alone. Thsi shows that Jack is trying to be a leader and challenges Ralph. Thus, there was already a conflict of interest between the 2 of them, whcih will lead to even major ones in the future.

Zhi Rong