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Post by S2Lit2008HCI on Mar 28, 2008 3:28:23 GMT -5
Post your answers as replies to this thread. Do NOT begin a new thread!
Chapter 1: The Sound Of the Shell
1) What is social order? How does it come about on the island?
2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig?
3) What is the significance of the conch?
4) What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles?
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Post by 2czhengxuan26 on Apr 2, 2008 8:51:09 GMT -5
haha i guess i will post some stuff. so basically these are my replies to question 2, 3, and 4 =D: 2) i think that Jack did not kill the pig as he was scared. He was just a child, and was afraid of blood and killing, although later on the book, he became a savage hunter. Jack had a "pure" heart at first, but was corrupted later in the book. Thus, Jack did not DARE kill the pig as he had a "pure" mentality, and could not bear bloodshed.
3) The conch is like an item of authority, when someone holds it, he can voice out his views. i think that this conch is to stop everyone from talking as the one with the conch has the biggest authority and everyone has to listen. thus, this conch is mostly to give authority and mantain order among the peopl
4) Piggy's spectacles are the only thing that can light the fire on the mountain, the fire which is to make smoke and alert others if ships come by. thus, Piggy's spectacles are very important as without them, a fire cannot be made.
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Post by 2cjamesquah28 on Apr 2, 2008 8:53:12 GMT -5
Hey all,
i will be approaching an analysis of Question 1.
Chapter 1 : The Sound Of The Shell
-Question 1- What is Social Order? How does it come about on the island?
Firstly, what is social order? Social Order, as defined by wikipedia, is a "concept used in sociology, history and other social sciences. It refers to a set of linked social structures, social institutions and social practices which conserve, maintain and enforce "normal" ways of relating and behaving."
( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_order )
So how exactly did social order come about on the island? In Chapter 1, social order first came about on the island when the discovery of the "conch" ( an interesting, pretty and a worthy plaything that moo-ed like a cow when blown- as defined in the book) was made by both Ralph and Piggy. Piggy then said that " a conch, ever so expensive. I bet if you wanted to buy one. You'd have to pay pounds and pounds and pounds". Therefore, from these statements, we can derive on the fact that the conch was in this sense, a very valuable object. After a while, Ralph used the conch to "call the others". After Ralph had blown the conch several times, many child figures could be seen approaching the beach from different directions. Afterwhich, they had an "meeting".
This part of the story signifies the first recognition of social order as there was a "proper meeting". So why do we define this "meeting" as a part of social order? Once again, as defined by wikipedia, social order selectively refers "social practices which conserve, maintain and enforce "normal" ways of relating and behaving" . Hence, in this sense, we can confirm that the first sign of social order appeared in the book on "page 24". Also, in this meeting, they had a vote of "chief selection". This once again supports the point of "social order" as it enforces the "normal" way of thinking and behaving. Hence, the sense of a "VOTE" symbolises that they were behaving in a rather civilised manner.
(However, Jack Merridew was not behaving in such a manner as he was rather arrogant and aggressive. This can be seen from how Jack demanded that he "ought to be chief" because of the fact that he's a "chapter chorister and head boy and could sing C sharp. This part of the story also siginifys the start of Jack's arrogant and aggressive journey through the story as it intensifies.)
Additionally, the coming of "social order" can also be supported by the factual evidence that after the meeting, Ralph actually asked Piggy to record down the namelist and count of all the children. From my point of view, "creating a namelist & headcount" once again, symbolises a very civilised and logical way of life. They could just do away with it in the first place without even going through the trouble of doing it.
(However, we know that later on throughout the book, it is actually stated that the namelist-taking was actually never done as the children were scattered all over the beach and it was rather troublesome for Piggy to take everything down. However, we still know that Piggy still TRIED to take the appropriate way of doing the "namelist" but to no avail.)
I have come to the end of my analysis of question 1. If you have any opinions, please state them down. Thank you
Regards, James Quah 2C28
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Post by 2bmarcuschong03 on Apr 2, 2008 9:32:24 GMT -5
Hey all, I will be voicing some of my thoughts about questions 2, 3 and 4. Great analysis by James from 2C by the way.
2) I think Jack is still unsure and not used to behave with no adult presence overseeing them, largely stick to the learned behaviors of civilization and order, so he didn't kill the pig. Since young he was taught of rules and regulations, dos and don'ts that were expected to be followed and he was definitely taught about the badness of killing. So he hesitated killing the pig as he was probably thinking hard about these and let the pig flee. It may be also partly because he was afraid.
3)The conch shell itself is one of the most important symbols in the novel. The conch shell represents law, and order, as it summons the boys from their scattered positions on the island and grants its holder the right to speak in front of the group. Showing a great sense of authority too. In this regard, the shell is more than a symbol—it is an actual vessel of political legitimacy and democratic power.
4)Piggy is the most intelligent, rational boy in the group, and his glasses represent the power of science and intellectual endeavor in society. This symbolic significance is clear from the start of the novel, when the boys use the lenses from Piggy’s glasses to focus the sunlight and start a fire.
Please feel free to comment! Thank you! =)
Regards, Marcus Chong 2B03
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Post by 2Climdejun18 on Apr 2, 2008 10:21:00 GMT -5
I'd be first tackling on the analysis of the first question.
1) What is social order? How does it come about on the island?
Social Order. When this array of characters show out- what would you think of it as? Basically in my opinon, the social order after the tragic incident of the crashing of plane incident that lead them to the island cause much chaos and the group was dispersed. There was evidently no social order on that island. Social Order only came about in the middle of this first Chapter. Piggy and Ralph met up and found out that there was a conch that was significant in the story later in terms of symbolising status and power over the casualties from the plane crash. The story develops the sence of "discovery of the conch" and then to the "discovering of the power of the conch" then leads to the calling of people to gather into a group, so that it can better facilitate them to do things, and figuring out a way to be saved and rescued. In any sense, it was an assembly to have a head count and then a brainstorming session, including a Poll to decide who would be the chief of this "group" of wandering islanders. The conch comes into use to call the others for a gathering.
(sidetracking a little into the other chapters) However did "social order" came about on the island. Do you remember how Jack (contradicting himself in the end) wanted rules to exist within the whole group of them on the island that has been called by the sound of the "conch". "We'll have rules, rules , rules and more rules" if you hadn't read the later chapters of the book. Apparently we can see that Jack Merridew tries to take on the role as the leader and tries to make the others into believeing that there should be rules and discipline while waiting to be rescued.
Jack Merridew, in the first chapter while in the voting of chief was voluntarily trying to be the chief and wanted a leadership position, and tries to reason out his way (with absolute unreasonable ones) into telling the others that he could be chief because he "could sing C sharp". This shows that Jack was beign unreasonable and I rule out the possibility of him having common sense that a leader should show team spirit and get together with the majority of the groups, and not just think of his personal gains. (like in the other chapters: you can see that Jack was trying to "domineer" and is unhappy with any rules in this part of the island.
Social Order in the proccess of voting of the chief was still not evident, when they came to a decision to choose Ralph as chief- and Ralph grabs hold of the situation and makes the children go into different groups and asks Piggy to count the number of heads in the meeting. Ralph tries to adapt the common method and logical systematic way of doing things though there is limited resources.
Organizing the different category of people with different abilities like hunting, making of the rescue smoke on the island- were also evidently showing that Ralph had taken a lot of initiative to get the different groups organized despite being unfarmiliar with them (showing potential leadership qualities in him)
Social Orders came about on the island due to these reasons, intensifying with each intention that Ralph continues with, and more initiative and suggestions are open to the many people on the island with them and they slowing progress to achieve better social orders on the island as well.
Chapter one marks as a beginning for showing us that social order was introduced into the many casualties from the plane crash.
I hope you do understand what i mean (I understand) (I really hope you do)
Cherrios, De Jun.
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Post by Alcander Seah 2B01 on Apr 3, 2008 1:23:51 GMT -5
I personally feel that Jack didn¡¯t kill the pig when he first encountered it at that time because his human instincts still lay within the entrapment of civilization and thus hesitated even though he was tempted to kill it. His human instinct was still heavily tilted towards civilization at this point of the story and it was only later did he descend into savagery after becoming obsessed with hunting and immersed himself in violence. Also, just freed from the adult boundaries, he was unsure of how to kill the pig as he had never encountered such a situation before.
The conch to me is one of the most essential symbols in this story. It symbolizes authority and order as the conch has the power to call for an assembly and the authority to let no one except Ralph interrupt when the person holding the conch is talking.
Piggy¡¯s spectacle is another symbol of this story. It represents the scientific and rational side of civilization and is used to light the fire signal for the boys to be rescued and thus has great significance in the story. When Piggy¡¯s specs was taken away from him, it also marked the total loss of civilization in the story as the boys descended totally into savagery .With the fire signal gone, it also marked the complete loss of connection to civilization as they would never be rescued.
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 3, 2008 1:24:54 GMT -5
I personally feel that Jack didn¡¯t kill the pig when he first encountered it at that time because his human instincts still lay within the entrapment of civilization and thus hesitated even though he was tempted to kill it. His human instinct was still heavily tilted towards civilization at this point of the story and it was only later did he descend into savagery after becoming obsessed with hunting and immersed himself in violence. Also, just freed from the adult boundaries, he was unsure of how to kill the pig as he had never encountered such a situation before.
The conch to me is one of the most essential symbols in this story. It symbolizes authority and order as the conch has the power to call for an assembly and the authority to let no one except Ralph interrupt when the person holding the conch is talking.
Piggy¡¯s spectacle is another symbol of this story. It represents the scientific and rational side of civilization and is used to light the fire signal for the boys to be rescued and thus has great significance in the story. When Piggy¡¯s specs was taken away from him, it also marked the total loss of civilization in the story as the boys descended totally into savagery .With the fire signal gone, it also marked the complete loss of connection to civilization as they would never be rescued.
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Post by 2akennethleong14 on Apr 3, 2008 3:03:58 GMT -5
Hi, these are my thoughts on the questions. Please feel free to comment.
1) What is social order? How does it come about on the island? Well, I feel that social order is the orderliness because of the influence of the society. Because of this, the children seem to think of a conch as a expensive figure and a special and therefore will respect the holder of the conch. This in my opinion is the effect of the influence of the society. Because of social order, the children in the book held a general meeting which people of the modern society usually hold such meetings and they even elected a chief, just like any other society which needs a leader to guide them. They also set rules to enforce order.
2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig? I think that Jack didn’t kill the pig because there was still a sense of order in him at that point of time and he should know that killing was a cruel thing to do as it was taking a life away. There was also no adult to guide him and so he was undecided about what to do with the pig as he didn’t know what was right and wrong. I also think that Jack might also be a bit lost and afraid being in a new place as anybody would and so he didn’t kill the pig.
3) What is the significance of the conch? The conch is something special and exquisite. It was known to be expensive and so usually if something is expensive, it will be admired by everyone. Being the only person who has a conch on the island, the conch has become a rare thing and an item that symbolizes leadership and authority and therefore, the children will respect whoever is holding the conch. Because of this conch, there can be law and order because the children keeps quiet and listen whenever a person is holding a conch.
4) What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles? I think that piggy’s specs represent the means of getting out of the island alive. This is because only piggy’s specs can light the fire on the mountain to send a signal to ships that they were stranded on the island. Without the specs, the chances on them being rescued was very small.
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 3, 2008 5:13:48 GMT -5
Tian Wen here,
here are my views. do post your comments ( negative or positive, i don't mind) and thoughts.
2. Jack didn't kill the pig, perhaps due to many factors. It could be out of shear fear or guilt ( in the context of this chapter) that made him not kill the pig. Fear of blood and death, as Jack was still a child, a civilised one at that ( though he became a savage hunter in the later part of the book). He too didn't kill the pig out of guilt. Killing something takes a deal of courage to do so, besides that, the guilt of killing that someone/something will linger in one's memories forever ( take Mary Maloney from last year's text).
3.The conch, in my opinion, is a symbol of authority, and poses as a representation of order in the "adult-world". With the conch, it brings about a civilised society on the island , with rules implemented to be followed. Without the conch, there would be no sense of social order at all.
4.Piggy's spectacles is the only key to the boys' rescue . Without the spectacles , the fire would not be lit, and without it , there would be no smoke signal. It plays such an important role that even the savages (or followers of Jack) resorted to stealing it in the later part of the book.
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Post by 2cangenming02 on Apr 3, 2008 5:17:20 GMT -5
Hello, these are my thoughts to the above questions. Feel free to comment. =)
1) Social order refers to the hierarchy of order in a society. In the story, Ralph becomes the chosen chief, not so much because of his intelligence but because of his appearance and quiet manner which "marked him out" from the rest and also because of his possession of the conch. Piggy has a more mature grasp of their situation and he guides Ralph into organising the boys, suggesting that they take a list of names.
Jack, in his self-assured way, assumes that he should be leader. However, his aggressive manner does not appeal to the other boys and he is outvoted.
2) As stated in the book, Jack drew his knife and was about to kill the pig. However, his "face was white under the freckles". This shows that Jack was afraid to kill the pig and decided not to. The boys knew it was "because of the enormity of the knife descending and cutting into living flesh; because of the unbearable blood". I feel that at that time, Jack was still like any other innocent boy on the island. He felt guilty to kill a living thing like that pig and did not want to take its precious life. Hence, this is why I think Jack did not kill the pig.
3) In the story, the conch was found by Piggy and Ralph. By blowing it, the conch was used to summon an assembly. Later it will become the symbol of authority and ordered life. They will lay down the fule that only the person having the conch in hand should alone speak. Hence, the conch signifies authority and power.
4) To me, in this story, the spectacles represent Piggy's identity. He has "been wearing specs since (he) was three" and since he was the only one wearing spectacles, it differentiates him fron the rest as being more intelligent than the other boys. Also, I feel that Piggy's spectacles can also signify his life as they are very important to him. In the later part of the story, the spectacles helped to light the fire. This shows that the spectacles is like giving life to the fire and eventually saving the boys' lives.
Thanks, Ang En Ming
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Post by 2cjamesquah28 on Apr 3, 2008 6:06:34 GMT -5
Hey all, Now, i'll be trying to analyse and answer question 4. Question 4What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles? To start it off, for those who do not understand the meaning of significance, it is defined by wikipedia as: -The extent to which something matters; importance -Meaning ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significance ) So, to what extent was Piggy's spects important? Also, what does Piggy's spects actually "mean"? Firstly, why was Piggy's spects important? In the novel, Piggy's spects could be to represent the identity of Piggy, as said by my friend Ang En Ming. However, in my opinion, the more important thing is that Piggy's spectacles actually signified a tool of "usefulness" and proper "reasoning". So why was a mere pair of spectacles useful in this sense? This is because on the island, the children were unable to start any fire by means of frictional heat generated by rubbing two pieces of wood against each other. In fact, the children actually gave that idea up even without a second thought and "dove for Piggy's spects" as it was logical in this sense that a pair of spectacles could actually concentrate light energy to a certain extent and spark a fire. Hence, Piggy's spects also too represented a level of "proper reasoning" besides the point of "identity". In the book, Piggy's mere pair of spectacles are mentioned frequently in nearly almost every chapter. From this point, we can also derive on the same fact again that Piggy's spects actually represented a "important, precious and useful tool". So, when connected to the outside world, what is the actual "meaning" of Piggy's spectacles? In the book, the meaning of Piggy's spectacles is represented in a rather simple way. The lone reason was that Piggy's spectacles were the only way these children could get off the island as it was the only significant object that could start a fire within their knowledge and capabilities. Hence, the meaning is actually in fact, back to my previous point, directed as a "useful" tool and a object with proper "reasoning". Back to En Ming's point of identity, the connection to be made is that Piggy's pair of spectacles acutally represented Piggy himself in this sense if you look at this in a rational point of view. However, later on in the book, Jack and his party of savages actually "stole" Piggy's spectacles for their own so they could start a fire and cook all the "meat" they had gotten. From my point of view, this might also signify that Jack had actually stole "proper reasoning from Ralph, Piggy and SamnEric". This can be supported as Jack later made his own "set of rules" at his new fort. I shall stop here and make it concise. If you have any opinions, good or bad. You may voice them down. Thank you for taking your time to read this. Regards, James Quah
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 3, 2008 6:27:01 GMT -5
Hi, Chapter 1: The Sound Of the Shell 2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig? Jack did not kill the pig because he was plainly frightened and also because of the fact that he was young and innocent and pure, he could not bear the fact that he was killing an innocent being and his conscience drew him back to reality. I think this is in reference of law and order in the real world. This is due to the way citizens act in a real context. Citizens are 'afraid of' breaking the rules because they will be punished. Hence, since Jack was a civilised boy who lived in a place with rules, he had this conscience in him that told him not to kill the pig (He hesitated). Furthermore, killing the pig to me can be compared to murder, as in murdering an innocent being. 3) What is the significance of the conch? The conch was there to show leadership and authority and order. However, to me, it also shows how the tribe (the group of boys) are divided in terms of leadership. Let me explain. Let's take in example, Ralph, who is the 'owner' of the conch. The conch rarely leaves his hands, thus making him 'one of the leaders in the group'. Hence the conch can be compared to the law, which in turn is related to authority and order. 4) What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles? Piggy's spectacles was the key to get off the island and saving the boys' lives. However, if we think logically, there are other ways of making fire, for example, rubbing two stones together to make fire etc. However, the boys on the island had no knowledge of building a fire and only that the spectacles was the only thing that could help them make a smoke signal which in turn could save their lives. Hence the spectacles was such a coveted item. It was so coveted and seen as a 'powerful item', that when Jack 'mutinies' and formed his own tribe, he stole (or at least tried to) the conch and the spectacles. Perhaps this move by Jack shows the fact that Jack was power-hungry and wanted to gain dominance in the group. Furthermore, this is also shown in the book when the contest of being a leader started. After Ralph was appointed the leader, Jack felt pretty unhappy. Hence, this could be significant as it highlights the fact that Jack wanted to be the leader of the tribe. Ralph also saw that Jack wanted to be the leader and pacifies him by appointing him the leader of the hunters. Please feel free to add comments. Thank you, Wen Kang.
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Post by 2Climdejun18 on Apr 3, 2008 7:11:00 GMT -5
Today, I'm focusing my target on this question posted 3) What is the significance of the conch?The Conch in the book was significant of authority, the power to speak, the possesion that could rule out everything. The conch as we have known from the first chapter, was the item that called the others to gather and form into a group to resolve this problem that they are in, and thus formed an image in the others and the reader's mind as a posession of the ruler (which was the conch). The conch symbolised power in most of the story plots when conflicts were aroused among the group. The conch was one that brought power to Ralph, starting off as a concluded "valuable" object as what Piggy claimed and which (eleborates) on the point to give ralph and the conch and significance of power, authority in the island. In this island- the conch was ruled to be a shell that once a person holds it, he has the right to voice out his opinons. The conch was also significant of "law" in the island. There were a set of rules that the group of children on the island had to follow and that these rules were meant to the followed by the islanders and due to the reason that they were under the wrong mentality that "the conch" signified power and the vote which chose Ralph to be "chief" and in charge of the island tribes. Further describing, the conch is to be related with "leadership" and by which Ralph decides to make full of what he can to organize the people into groups and forming rules (that were in the end implemented) and trying to rule that those who had the conch thus concluded as one of T.U.H.A (The Unquestionable High Authority) in this story. The conch however, apart from signifying such important value and power in this island is worthless outside, only for its value and price it will fetch, the conch is also potraying an image of importance to us, as Ralph treats the conch like a treasure and holds the conch and brings it everywhere he goes. Thus it is utmost importance in the story plot as well, which develops to an extent where the conch is being eliminated and treated as a worthless thing by Jack Merriew who was full of himself. The conch was therefore concluded as important to me, and at the last few chapters of the book, the conch is being broken into many million pieces and the importance of the conch is still there which Ralph felt helpless without it anymore. The Conch more than signified that, it signified new friendship, new bonding and rapport among the casualties of the plane crash. (it is "needless to say" or explain) you get what i drive at. Unless you didn't read the text LOTF (Lord Of the Flies), you would understand what i meant by about 75% at least, i think If you want to voice out on any bad inference I gave about the conch, do respond. ( adapted from james lol.) Cheers, De Jun
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Post by 2cangrayyan03 on Apr 3, 2008 8:01:36 GMT -5
Hello All, basically I am expressing some of my views for all four questions, so feel free to comment.
1) Social order refers to how a society's structure and practices are generally like and maintain within. With this, I would first say that it was total chaos at first, only when later they had the conch, signifying authority, brought about some order to the survivors from the plane.
After the elections, where Ralph was elected as chief, some order was brought into place. Ralph was leader, Jack owned the choir(which was later used for hunting with him), Piggy was a sort of secretary, as he was recording names in the first chapter, and besides a few people like Simon (for the first paragraph) which are special, the rest of the people remained as helpers in anything that is required (although the efficiency was reduced after hearing about the "monster", and they were reluctant to work ).So, it was the conch would brought back social order, and this particular group of survivors would then have a direction, under their leader, Ralph, to help them get out of the island and survive. 2) Firstly, as stated in the text (pg 41), it was most probably because of the "unbearable blood" that resulted in this. Probably they were not used to the situation they were in yet, and were not prepared to slaughter anything. This is changed later when Jack becoms a savage. So, what I think is that Jack did not do it out of fear, and that fear comes from the fact that he was not accustomed with slaughtering, and also, maybe because he was a child, and did not dare kill anything at first.
3) To me, the conch firstly represents authority.It is required for someone to speak during meetings,and also one of the reasons how Ralph got elected as chief (pg. 30) . However, I think that it is a representtion of authority only because it was initially used to gather every single person on the island to a specific location, which gave them a sense of "safety in numbers",and security. If not, I doubt it will be treated as a prized obsession. Alsom note that it brought about social order as mentioned earlier.
4) Piggy's spectacles most likely represent his intelligence, or that he was very clever. It gives the impression that Piggy was a bookworm, and that he was smarter than the rest. Also, the spectacles were later required to light up the fire, so that ships passing by could see it, and bring them a chance of getting home.
Thats all I have to say for now. I will add anything if neccessary. State your opinions if you wish. Thank you.
Regards, Ray Yan
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Post by 2cpekjiehui27 on Apr 3, 2008 8:04:50 GMT -5
Hi people. I shall now voice my views on the questions =D
1) What is social order? How does it come about on the island?
Basically, social order is actually an idea, concept, or even action carried out either maintain or conserve the expected or usual way of behavior or process by which something is carried out. In chapter one, there was absolutely no social order before the conch was blown. After that, social order started to come about when everyone gathered at the beach and electing Ralph as the leader. After electing, the social order gradually went down when the luttluns were dispersed and running around, making Piggy in a spot by which it was impossible to take down names.
2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig?
At the beginning, Jack Merridew was a very civilized and typical, ordinary British boy. Before he became a 'savage' ,in the later chapters, Jack was still very innocent. Although wanting to be the leader because he could sing C sharp, he still abides by Ralph as a leader when he was elected and adhere to his rules. On the exploration trip with Ralph and Simon, he did not kill the pig. This was because this was not that he did not want to, but more of because he could not bear to. He could not tolerate the scene of the pig's blood spurting and gushing out of the throat. This symbolizes that he was still at the mindset of a child at that time. This links to his heart of his innocence and purity, leading to him not daring to kill the pig.
3) What is the significance of the conch?
The conch actually symbolizes the world of authority in the society. In the book, anyone who got hold of the conch could speak and everyone else was to listen to the speaker. However, this authority was ignored when Piggy held the conch due to the fact that he was being ostracized by the rest of the boys. Hence, although one had the authority to speak or to lead in the society, others may still choose to ignore the authority. However, all in all, the conch was there to maintain order for anyone who wanted to speak.
4) What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles?
Piggy's spectacles was the only tool on the island which could light up a fire. Also, the fire was the only thing which could save the boys from the island. Piggy, now in this sense, was not totally useless in others' eyes. When linked to the real world, Piggy's spectacles was actually the key to resolving the crisis, and, ironically, this useful tool actually came from the most useless and meaningless person from the rest of the boys' eyes. This was so until the later part of the book where Ralph discovers that "he could not think like Piggy". Piggy's spectacles' usefulness and cruciality is most evident in the later parts of the book where Jack steals his spectacles, even though he had a big tribe, as he knew that without this key tool another thing would not have been in use. Hence, Piggy's spectacles symbolized a crucial and essential tool and key in resolving the crisis
Hope you don't find it too long
Regards, Jie Hui
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