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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 3, 2008 8:13:30 GMT -5
On reference to Wen Kang¡¯s post, I agree with Wen Kang¡¯s view that Jack hesitated before killing the pig was because he was afraid that he would be punished to a certain extent. I would just like to add on some more points that he may have looked over. The children had just been stranded on the island at chapter one and thus, as I have mentioned, had just been freed from the captivity of the adult boundaries. With no adult presence overseeing them and keeping their conduct in top notch, they only maintained their civilization they were familiar with for a short time as they were English educated. I will like to say that the reason Jack hesitated was not because he was frightened and afraid of breaking the rules, but rather because he was still unfamiliar with the surroundings and that he had not discovered the other human instinct that had been suppressed by the instinct of civilization for the past many years. Now, with the boundaries of civilization laid off, the natural human instinct of savagery absent previously had naturally surfaced, but not at this early stage of the story and that was why Jack had hesitated before killing the pig, because he had not adapted and given in to savagery yet, rather than afraid of being punished. Thank You
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Post by 2afoojieyang11 on Apr 3, 2008 8:45:39 GMT -5
HELLO all, i shall share my views on these questions:
2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig? I think that Jack did not kill the pig as he feels that killing is a wrong thing to do where he was under rules set by the Chief. The rules were supposed to ensure civilisation within the group of school children, thus Jack did not want to behave like a barbarian and kill the pig at the start of the story.
3) What is the significance of the conch? The conch is a symbol of authority and power that grants the holder everyone else's attention for him to speak. It is also a item for the order within the children as, *spoiler ahead* when the conch was shattered while Piggy was holding it and was killed, the children set fire on the whole island not long after his death. This shows that the conch maintains the order within the children. *no more spoilers :D* The conch also has the power to call everyone as stated that Ralph blew into the conch and everyone gathered.
4) What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles? Piggy's spectacles are probably the most important item for survival on a deserted island as it can start a fire just by focusing it on a point. His spectacles are a symbol of life, as with the fire it can make, the children can be rescued by sending smoke signals. *spoilers again* Later in the story, Jack and his hunters attacked Piggy and Ralph at night, just so to obtain the spectacles to produce a fire. They were so desperate for them that they had to work out their plan at night and resort to a cruel plan to rob Piggy off his sight. *no more spoilers :D*
These are my opinions on the questions 2-4, feel free to comment as my answers are not perfectly correct :D
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Post by 2byuyang24 on Apr 3, 2008 9:47:21 GMT -5
I agree with Marcus from 2B about the significance of the conch.
The conch represents leadership and power. In addition to the xamples stated by Marcus, I would like to mention 2 more.
1. In the beginning of the story, all the little children voted for Ralph because the conch was in his hand. ' "Him with the shell." "Ralph! Ralph!" "Let him be chief with the trumpet thing" ' this excerpt shows how everybody seems to think that power and order comes from the conch.
2. Another example of the power of the conch is the fact that throughout the book the conch is the only item that can call a meeting and the meeting was to be held wherever the conch was.
Thanks, Yu Yang 2B24
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 4, 2008 5:08:24 GMT -5
On reference to Alcander's point, I also agree that Jack hesitated before killing the pig because of the fact that he was unfamiliar with the surroundings. Yes, of course Jack was unfamiliar with the surroundings but we also have to consider the fact that he was also a city boy. He lived in a city in England. He was English. In the olden days, English people had rules, lots of them. Thus, I want to clarify that when he wanted to kill the pig, the young and civilised Jack in a split second considered the fact that he was killing something, even though the pig was not human, but since Jack was thinking at the spur of the moment that most probably he wasn't thinking logically and thus hesitated. Of course, I agree with Alcander but we also have to consider the point that when there are rules, there are also punishments. Jack mainly hesitated because he was afraid of the after-effects and the punishment that was to follow, because he was still killing a living thing, I'm not focusing on the pig itself. (in the civilised world, if you killed a person, punishment was obviously to be followed.) . Hence, we can say that Jack was still a 'civilised boy' when he first set foot on the island. Thank you.
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 4, 2008 5:36:52 GMT -5
As Wen Kang has mentioned, Jack mainly hesitated because he was afraid of the after-effects and the punishment that was to follow. I would like to remind you that Jack had just been free from the boundaries of civilisation and you must also consider the fact that there were only children on the island, not adults. Furthermore, Jack was also one of the oldest among the children on the island and that proves that when Jack was tempted to kill the pig, he did not even consider being punished as there was no one of that authority to punish him there, not even Ralph. He only hesitated only because of the unfamiliar surroundings and the influence of civilisation that still lay within him. Thank You
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 4, 2008 6:41:29 GMT -5
No, I would like to clarify that yes, Jack was afraid of being punished and the after-effects but this was because he was still in the context of being a civilised person with rules and such. I agree that he hesitated due to the unfamiliar surroundings and the influence of civilisation that still lay within him. However, we must consider the fact that he was only on the island for about a few hours. Of course, no such person can change from a civilised person at heart to a wild barbaric killer in a few hours? That's impossible. Furthermore, I would like to make a point that Jack most probably was familiar with the rules in England. Although Jack had just been free from the boundaries of civilisation and that there were only children on the island, not adults, he obviously had some impression of the rules in his own country right? It's not as if once he comes onto the island he runs around like a lunatic killing everyone he sees. Thus, he hesitated because he still was a civilised person and hence, in this context, he was afraid of the punishment that followed. Yes, I acknowledge the fact that there was no punishment on the island, but at the same time there was punishment in his country, similarly in all countries in the world. Therefore, I conclude that he knew the rules and because he was a civilised citizen before he came to the island, he hesitated to kill the pig because it seemed to be a bad sin. Thank you.
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Post by 2Climdejun18 on Apr 4, 2008 10:19:22 GMT -5
To be on the opposition of "alcander2b" Jack didn't kill the pig ( that's true, it's stated in the book) and that everyone blamed Jack for not killing the pig ( when he first went for hunting) and neglected the fire/smoke that could get them rescued from the island. Jack was still a child/teenager only- it has got to do with urbanisation not civilisation. (then what aboue cavemens who go around hunting for their food, they are just like mad butchers chasing wildlife right?) We aren't exposed to much of Jack's background of his life before this plane crash tragedy, and that at this point, we don't know if he was at all a person who accepted butchering of pigs. In my viewpoint, Jack volunteered to be a hunter and thus he should be working towards his objective to kill pigs, it was his fault that he did not kill the pig. My reason for him : He was not agile. Why so... they crowded around the pig but still let the pig escape. (isn't it true) but contradictory: He was in charge of choir Why did i bring up this point: People who like music are normally taught to be more elegant and thought of as more elegant and discipline and everything well and good just comes with it, isn't it? So it may have been hard for him Thus, I can conclude we cannot make conclusions about such.generalized themes/question that is not specified in the book I WILL FURTHER EXPLAIN
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Post by 2byuyang24 on Apr 4, 2008 10:35:57 GMT -5
Hi all, I would like to state the power of the conch in the beginning and later part of the story.
In the beginning: Piggy and Ralph first find the conch in Chapter 1. It represents civilization and democracy. Ralph first blows the conch to call all the other boys on the island together to form a civilization. All the boys then vote him as the leader because he was the one holding the conch. The boys then use the conch as a right to speak. "Ralph smiled and held up the conch for silence." Throughout the novel, Piggy holds on to the conch and encourages Ralph and others to use it at times when Piggy feels that civilization is being lost. In addition, meetings were to be held at the current location of the conch and the person holding the conch had the right to speak.
Later parts: Throughout the story, the conch shell gradually loses its power and influence, evident from the fading colour of the shell, until the shell is finally destroyed when the boulder which killed Piggy crushed the conch shell ("The conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist"), signifying the demise of civilisation among the boys.
Thanks, Yu Yang 2B24
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Post by 2bongyuhao17 on Apr 5, 2008 3:56:50 GMT -5
what is the significance of the conch? the conch was a symbol of authority which means the holder of the conch would be the leader of the boys living on that island. the conch is able to attract the attention of people with the noise it is able to produce. with that, it will be easier to command respect among the boys on the island. The conch once again reflected on the education of British boys. Piggy was able to recognize the conch when he was walking past it. He figured that it might have been able to create a loud deep noise which would no doubt attract the attention of the other island dwellers. The conch also symbolized leadership. The holder of the conch would have the authority. Having that authority, would mean the holder would effectively be the leader.
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Post by 2bongyuhao17 on Apr 5, 2008 4:00:46 GMT -5
what do you think was the significance of piggy's spectacles? piggy's spectacles could also be an item of authority. this is so as the holder of piggy's spectacles can threaten the boys on the island to obey him as the spectacles seemed the only thing on the island which can light a fire. the fire was important as it ensured a higher chance of being rescued by a passing ship. Piggy spectacles also led to a series of savage incidents. His spectacles also reflects on the education of British at that period of time. The British were so smart that they could use the spectacles to attempt to light a fire. No one would have been able to think of such a way if it was back to the time when this story was written.
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Post by 2bongyuhao17 on Apr 5, 2008 4:06:17 GMT -5
3) What is the significance of the conch? The conch was there to show leadership and authority and order. However, to me, it also shows how the tribe (the group of boys) are divided in terms of leadership. Let me explain. Let's take in example, Ralph, who is the 'owner' of the conch. The conch rarely leaves his hands, thus making him 'one of the leaders in the group'. Hence the conch can be compared to the law, which in turn is related to authority and order. Best, Wen Kang. oh wenkang. u did not mention why was the conch a symbol of authority. just because he rarely puts down that conch doesnt mean that it was a symbol of authority. it might just be one of his favourite toy?
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 5, 2008 7:08:52 GMT -5
Yu Hao, I'm sorry that I didn't elaborate properly. Firstly, we can deduce that the conch is a symbol of authority when all the boys listen to Ralph when he blew the conch. So from this we can safely say that all the boys listened to the conch, the conch-bearer, or the person who is holding the conch. Now, let me ask you, who came up with the rule of the conch? Ralph. Who holds the conch all the time? Ralph. Who usually blows the conch? Ralph. Who usually calls for assemblies? Ralph. Hence, we can say that Ralph is the leader (which the boys voted for anyway) of the tribe. Leaders get respect, which implies into authority. I have also a gut feeling that the conch is not Ralph's favourite toy. Thank you.
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Post by 2chuyongda10 on Apr 5, 2008 7:56:15 GMT -5
Hi all,
I will be answering the following questions posted by Ms Ngo.
2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig?
His basic humanity deters him from doing so. He unconsiously feels that it is morally wrong to kill a being, whether human or not. This shows he still had some sense of civilisation in him. Furthermore, being a boy who had never killed a wild animal before, had some sense of fear and disgust when he realised that he was going to kill the pig. Thus, all this come down to his intolerance to barbaric behaviour and his sense of civilisation which prevented him from killing the pig.
3) What is the significance of the conch?
The conch shell represents law, order, and authority, as it summons the boys from their scattered positions on the island and grants its holder the right to speak in front of the group.
4) What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles?
Personally, I feel Piggy's specs represents intelligence, science of civilisation. The intelligence that the spectacles seem to have is related to it's owner, Piggy who is an extremely bright boy who was very well-read. The scientific part behind the specs is that the specs was used to light a fire. This gives a kind of scientific feeling to the specs.
Rgrds, Yongda
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Post by 2cpekjiehui27 on Apr 5, 2008 8:46:09 GMT -5
Hi everyone.
I would like to oppose De Jun's point of saying that Jack did not kill the pig because he was not agile.
Firstly, Jack's being unable to kill the pig was definitely not because of agility. This could be supported from the context of the book. In pg 29, the 3 boys encountered the pig in the forest "... Jack drew his knife again with a flourish. He raised his arm in the air. There came a pause, the pig continued to scream..." This shows that Jack actually had time to think and consider about his decision of whether he wanted to stab the pig on the spot. If he actually HAD time to THINK, his agility would not be a factor considered in why he was unable to kill the big.
Also , on pg 30, the author already somehow explained why Jack did not kill the pig "They knew very well why he hadn't; because of the enormity of the knife descending and cutting into living flesh; because of the unbearable blood." This clearly shows that Jack could not tolerate or bear the sight of the blood spurting and gushing from the pig, which shows that he, at that time, was still a typical and ordinary civilized British boy at that time, and still unfamiliar with the spurting of blood.
Lastly, to prove that Jack was civilized and thus did not kill the pig, on pg 30 "Next time there would be no mercy." Note the word "mercy". This shows that Jack showed the pig mercy, and thus did not kill it
Hence, Jack being unable to kill the pig has definitely NOTHING to do with his agility.
Please post your views and comments.
Regards, Jie Hui
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Post by 2czhengxuan26 on Apr 5, 2008 9:11:49 GMT -5
i would like to agree with jie hui. it was true that Jack had not killed the pig just because he was not fast enough. instead, it was because him, and EVERYONE had came from a civillised "world", where they are not exposed to these kind of hunting and killing. thus, they can be said to have a "pure" mindset. Jack was afraid, and maybe even pitied the pig, and thus let it off as he could not bear to stick his knife and kill the pig. and, just because he is in choir, doesn't mean he is elegant. Everyone on the island had come from a civillised country: Britain. Thus, all of them have most likely not experience bloodshed before, and thus contradictory to De Jun's point, i shall state that Jack did not kill the pig as:
1. He HAD NO experience in this field, and came from a civillised community. 2. He was AFRAID and could not bear to see the blood when killing the pig.
thank you >__< zheng xuan
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