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Post by 2Cyangyi32 on Apr 5, 2008 9:37:39 GMT -5
Hey All,
I'll just post my replies for the first three questions.
1) What is Social Order? How does it come about on the island?
Social Order happens when there is a activity, or an organisation or institution, that enforces order and decorum. How does this happen in a group of schoolboys in an island?
The first example of social order happening on the island is when the first schoolboys arrive after Ralph blows on the conch. The boys, if you recall, are all very young and obey Piggy when he asks for their names. That in itself is an example of some order.
The second example is when all the boys gather after hearing the noise of the conch. When the boys have a meeting and start to debate about their course of action, Ralph suggests that they should have a chief. Also, he instructs Piggy to keep a namelist. This exemplifies the characteristics of a civilised meeting in society. The boys have a perfectly civilised and orderly vote for their chief, which in my opinion is a good example of social order.
2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig?
Essentially, Jack is still a child. At that young age of around 12, he would not have had the mindset and the guts to plunge a knife into something which has life. Borne from a civilised society, and not from a tribe of cannibals, it is our basic instinct. Even at this age of 14, i venture to ask whether anyone would have the urge to kill a pig, in a situation that poses no immediate danger or offers any stimulant. Also, the blood brings it hard into the boys' minds that they are actually commiting the act of murder, which, even though not performed on a fellow human being, is still murder. Thus their very being, convinced that murder is something to be afraid of and avoided, tells Jack that he should not kill the pig.
3)What is the significance of the conch?
First and foremost, the conch signifies leadership. Followers of a group or organisation rally around a leader, and since there was no clear leader at the beginning, the boys rallied to the second best thing, which was the conch that brought them together. At this point, we must understand that the boys favoured the status of the conch over the eligibility of the boys as a leader. Thus, as Ralph possessed the conch, he was naturally favoured as leader. The conch was the item that first drew them together, and throught it, Ralph managed to unite the boys in one group. The conch quickly becomes a symbol of authority in the boys' close-knit group. Basically, whoever has the conch has an elevated status in their group. Thus its significance in the story.
Any comments are welcome =) Thanks for reading.
Cheers, Yang Yi
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Post by 2bmarcuschong03 on Apr 5, 2008 12:40:41 GMT -5
Hey all, I had totally forgotten about Question 1 so I'm back here to state my opinions on it. ^^
1) First of all, social order means a kind of concept carried to maintain the usual behaviour by which something is supposed to be. So with this I would firstly say that the situation was a complete mess at first, only after they had the conch which signifies authority, bringing in law and order.
Social order goes pretty well in this chapter, for example everybody came to assembled upon hearing the blowing of the conch shell from their scattered places. Then the person holding the conch shell was granted power or right to speak and be paid attention to like a judge in court, showing social order. Then they conducted an election for a leader whereby Ralph was selected and Piggy started recording names on a list to keep track of the group, similar to our taking of attendence, again showing social order. Then they started a work plan or a division of labour and set out in an orderly manner to explore the island, which in my opinion showing social order too.
{Said "showing social order" for 4 consecutive sentences, paiseh... =.="}
Regards, Marcus Chong 2B03
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Post by 2czhengxuan26 on Apr 5, 2008 23:30:46 GMT -5
heyys. i would like to answer question 3, the one on the conch.
3) What is the significance of the conch?
I feel that the conch is more than just a thing that makes a 'moo' sound when blown. Later in the story, Ralph states that if anyone wants to talk, he must have the conch in his hand. This then shows a reflection of something in modern day society. Leadership and authority. The conch signifies this. In order to prevent messy opinions given out by everyone, the conch, when in somebody's hands, signifies that that person has the RIGHT to talk, and everyone would listen. In modern day society, this is also true, like how other people have higher ranks (managers, supervisors etc.) and these people mostly have a higher power to voice out their views.
Thus, the conch is not just a item used in the story as a sign of leadership, and that whoever held it had the power to talk, as the conch was probably put in to also symbolize the power of authority in modern day society.
thank you =D
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Post by 2cjamesquah28 on Apr 7, 2008 7:15:18 GMT -5
Hey all, I'll be trying to tackle Question 3. Question 3What is the significance of the conch? Firstly, adapted from wikipedia, "William Golding's Lord of the Flies features frequent references to "the Conch". In the book the conch is used as a trumpet to call everyone together and held by whoever is speaking at meetings, symbolically representing democracy and order. When a boulder released by Roger, Jack's lieutenant, smashes the conch, it is a sign that civilized order has collapsed and Jack's domination has begun." So, by grasping this idea, the conch is actually a symbol of democracy and order. It is mainly used as a token of "authority"in meetings and whoever held the conch had the "Highest Authority" for speech. *However, this rule was often defied by Jack when Piggy is concerned. Additionally, how can we support and confirm the view of the conch as a sign of "authority"? In page 30, when the boys were voting for a chief, they actually CONSIDERED Ralph as the most powerful person as though he was holding a weapon a.k.a "The Conch". This can be confirmed by the following quote: " But there was a stillness about Ralph as he sat that marked him out; there was his size, and attractive appearance; and most obsurely, yet most powefully, there was the conch. The being that had blown that, had sat waiting for them on the platform with the delicate thing balanced on his kness, was set apart." Hence, we do know from this part of the story that the conch had a big symbolism and significance. This will indefinitely be "authority, democracy and order". Regards, James Quah
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Post by 2byuyang24 on Apr 7, 2008 7:23:17 GMT -5
Dear Yu Hao,
I do not agree with your view on the significance of Piggy's spectacles. You stated that Piggy's spectacles represented authority as the person holding Piggy's spectacles could threaten anyone on the island due to the fact that it could raise a fire. What are the evidence in the story to prove this. In addition, if Piggy's spectacles could threaten people, why would many of the children tell Piggy to "shut up" whenever he wants to say something.
Thanks, Yu Yang 2B24
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Post by 2byuyang24 on Apr 7, 2008 7:33:42 GMT -5
I would like to express my views on the significance of Piggy's spectacles.
Piggy was the one boy on the island who was concerned with conventional thinking and reasoning, and with "what grownups would think" if they only knew what was occurring on the island. Piggy is the one whom Ralph turns to when he wants to hear another opinion on a matter. Before answering, Piggy cleans his glasses, as if it gives him a clearer vision of what the answer is, or what is most appropriate to say. In addition, this action of cleaning his spectacles show his desire for clear-sightedness and civilisation. After the assembly in which Jack felt he should be chief on the island, and although Piggy was bothered by Ralph ranting and interrupting him, he remained calm. "Piggy gave up the attempt to rebuke Ralph. He polished his glass again and went back to his subject" (118). When he did speak, his rational, thought-out response reflected his introspective reflections. Piggy was lost, and at a loss for words, without his specs. When they were stolen by the other tribe, "Piggy sought in his mind for the words to convey his passionate willingness to carry the conch against all odds;" prior to the pilfering of his glasses, Piggy was never at a loss for words or had to search his mind for what to say (159). Later in the novel, Piggy was killed by a massive boulder which he did not see coming, and Ralph even "heard the great rock before he saw it" (167). The glasses were integral to his survival, and when he was without them, he lost his sight and his life.
The glasses were also key to the rest of the group, for they provided the spark that was needed to start the fire which would give them warmth, light, the ability to cook, and a signal for their rescue. Once the boys realized the power and potential of Piggy's glasses, they were a coveted commodity. "Jack pointed suddenly. 'His specs-use them as burning glasses!' Piggy was surrounded before he could back away" (36). When the boys separated into two tribes, Jack's tribe had to sneak up on Ralph's group and steal Piggy's glasses because they knew the specs were vital to their survival, and necessary to retain their powerful status.
The glasses were the boys' 'lifeline', and once the glasses were broken by Jack, the society that the boys had tried to establish was beginning to break down, also. Subsequently, the glasses were stolen, and it was at that point that Jack's tribe turned against Ralph's tribe, and was seeking to eradicate them. When Piggy was killed, there was a man-hunt for Ralph, as the island became engulfed with flames. The specs were the rationality and reason of the group, and upon the demise of the wearer who used those gifts wisely, the system broke down and chaos ensued. The boys needed to see beyond their time spent on the island and focus on the future and the consequences of their actions but were unable to do so, blinded by power,without the aid of the glasses.
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Post by 2cderborne17 on Apr 7, 2008 9:36:15 GMT -5
Hello guys, I would like to share my views on why Jack did not kill the pig.
2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig?
Personally, I feel that Jack was afraid of killing a living thing. As a child, he probably did not kill anything bigger than insects before. Furthermore, the thought of stabbing the pig, is almost equivalent to stabbing someone else. The thought of being civilised and law-abiding struck Jack as he could not bear to kill something that will react in pain and agony when being hurt. When we kill an insect, it's probably not much of a big deal as it happens almost everyday, whether if it is intentional or due to carelessness. Hence, one does not feel that killing an insect is much of a big deal. However, when it comes to killing a pig, the pig will "squeak" and squirm in pain, as if begging you to stop hurting it. Additionally, not many people kill pigs everyday, especially children. Therefore, when Jack attempted to kill the pig, he could not bring himself to do it as he fear that he may turn into someone who feels that "murder" is not serious. In conclusion, Jack is struck by the fear that he is actually about to murder something that has so much "life" in it, almost similar to that of a humans. Furthermore, murder is not to be taken lightly and is a serious offence. So his conscience struck him and stopped him from stabbing the pig.
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Post by 2cgalileoyap07 on Apr 7, 2008 9:43:49 GMT -5
Hi all, I will be answering Question 1. 1) What is social order? How does it come about on the island? This question is a question of civility, it is very apparent in the later chapter as it addresses the status of the biguns and the smalluns, who are placed rather based on size, in pecking order. Social order is more about leading a "normal way of life" and we would have to accurately state the meaning and the significance of this "normality" that was not found in the island the later chapters. As you can see, the novel presents a rather dark view on the boys trapped on the islands as well as their ideology and their principles, which all gradually fade away from their thinking. This is supported by the last few paragraphs or pages in the book, that Percival Wemys Madison had forgotten his name completely, whereas in the first few parts of the book he could still remember his name. This represents the foolishness of the savages, and that they had put away any saneness that they had in the start of the novel. Two groups appear, separated by the bitterness and resentment of Jack towards Ralph being leader, and this constitutes the rivalry that would lead, albeit indirectly, to Simon's and Piggy's death. Thank you. 2C07 Galileo Yap
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Post by 2cderborne17 on Apr 8, 2008 9:37:20 GMT -5
Hello! Today I shall answer: 3) What is the significance of the conch?
The Conch is an object that is highly respected and gives the person holding it a rank of high authority. Ralph, who was the chief, announced that the Conch is an object that gives anyone the authority to voice out during assemblies. It is the symbol for assemblies. When Ralph decides that it is the right time to call for an assembly, he will blow the conch and everyone will assemble in front of him, eargerly waiting for the latest announcement or decision Ralph has thought of. Though no one really listens to Piggy despite him possessing the Conch, in the rest of the children's hands, the Conch enables the holder to speak without others interupting. Furthermore, the Conch symbolizes adulthood, or the maturity of an adult. With the Conch, the children show respect to it and there is law and order on the island. As the Conch is referred to as a "valuable" and "extremely rare" item, it is the most respected object on the island. The children ensure that there will be order when the Conch is around, trying their best to achieve what an adult will do to solve a problem. Hence, the Conch signifies the maturity and authority in the text Lord of the Flies. Thank You, Derborne xD
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 9, 2008 2:04:22 GMT -5
Hey all,
I will be approaching the analysis of question 3.
Question 3
What is the significance of the conch?
Firstly, (for those who don't know) Ralph and Piggy discover the conch on the beach at the start of the novel and use it to summon the boys together after the crash separates them.
Hence, in my opinion, the conch signifies civilization and order in the novel. The conch effectively governs the boys’ meetings, as the boy who holds the shell holds the right to speak.
Furthermore, I personally feel that the conch also signifies authority and it can also help the boys to learn to be independent.
As the island civilization erodes and the boys descend into savagery, therefore, the conch loses its power and the influence it had on them. Ralph clutches the conch desperately when he talks about his role in murdering Simon.
However, the other boys ignore Ralph and throw stones at him when he attempts to blow the conch in Jack’s camp.
Finally, The boulder that Roger rolls onto Piggy also crushes the conch, signifying the end of the civilized instinct among almost all the boys on the island.
All in all, the conch signifies civilization, order, authority and independency.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 9, 2008 2:10:51 GMT -5
Hey all,
I will be approaching the analysis of question 4.
Question 4
What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles?
Since Piggy is the most intelligent, rational boy in the group, his glasses, in my opnion, will represent the power of science and intellectual endeavor in the society.
This significance is clear from the start of the novel, when the boys use the lenses from Piggy’s glasses to focus the sunlight and start a fire.
When Jack’s hunters raid Ralph’s camp and steal the glasses, the savages effectively take the power to make fire, leaving Ralph’s group helpless since the fire is used to attract the notice of passing ships that might be able to rescue the boys.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 9, 2008 7:57:57 GMT -5
"Furthermore, I personally feel that the conch also signifies authority and it can also help the boys to learn to be independent. "
i refer to this extract from terre's post. Authority does NOT signify independence. Form Authority comes law order, which further on results in democracy within the boys. Law and order acts like the connection between the boys and all aspects of civilisation. Thus, i would like to clarify, how does this lead to independence of the boys?
Thanks,
tian wen
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Post by 2cnicklee25 on Apr 9, 2008 10:08:47 GMT -5
I will be touching on Q4, the significance of Piggy’s spectacles. I think this question is interesting.
Piggy’s spectacles takes on the juxtaposition of many roles. It does not matter whether they are noteworthy or insignificant. I will go from micro to macro, starting with the specs significance of Piggy himself.
A pair of spectacles is usually linked to intelligence. Similarly, this is what happens in this book. The spectacles give Piggy a scholastic appearance, which suits him rather well, as he is taken as the more rational and intellectual member of the group.
Piggy can also be compared to a pair of spectacles as well. Why so. In the same manner the metallic frame with two lenses sitting on the bridge of our nose helps us silently but yet vigilantly with our hopeless vision, So does Piggy, in his quiet and usually shy manner, contributes ideas to the group to increase their chances of vitality. He more often conveys ideas to his friend Ralph, who then expresses it to the whole tribe. In this way, he can considered a silent and discredited item that contributes to the group but is then put in disregard, the same way we hardly notice our spectacles.
Piggy’s spectacles can represent his identity, as what one of my friends said. This is what I feel is most important about the spectacles relating to Piggy himself. Throughout the entire novel, note the number of times Golding has illustrated the action of Piggy finding something to clean his glasses with, or simply wiping his glasses. To me, Piggy sometimes does it meaninglessly, for the sake of doing it, sometimes it signifies rumination, and at times exposes Piggy’s sentiments. It is something like a habit, but more. It is a unique trait. In the first place, he is the lone soul in the group that wears spectacles. This effort of cleaning his spectacles both tirelessly and clumsily, is something that can define Piggy. To sum it up, it is an idiosyncrasy. Why do I say that he uses it meaninglessly, to think, or that it shows us Piggy’s feelings.
There is a portion in the first chapter that states Piggy taking “off his glasses and looking vainly for something with which to clean them”. There is no need for explanation for this, it is understood that Piggy does this for no apparent reason, other than to shy away from Ralph’s rather personal question about his dead parents, and thus showing his deliberation and anxiety in answering that question. When he feels threatened in the later parts of the book by j.Merridew, he takes the glasses and attempts to clean them. This is compared to how he shirks away from society and attempts to become unnoticeable, trying hard to not attract attention or humiliation from the rest, or just to try and avoid a potential conflict. At times, when Piggy did polish his spectacles, what he said next usually(/hopefully) resulted in highly latent and bright ideas after his moments of careful inspection with his spectacle lens. It reflects rumination and cogitation. The glasses were the pith to Piggy’s very survival. Without his vision aid, he was rendered hapless and helpless. A sitting-duck for some ‘trigger-happy’ Roger, who happily heaved down a substantially huge rock onto Piggy’s welcoming face. He lost both his sight, and his life.
For a rather random point, for every time that Golding paints the picture of Porky Pig looking down and cleaning his spectacles, it also serves as a breather to us and for a second or so, secedes us from the daunting plight of the boys, and allows to rest, before proceeding on to any action that ensues. In the constant reiteration of the act of trying to sanitize his beloved glasses, the reader twitches with sometimes, a slight sense of mirth at Piggy’s innocence.
I will revolve around the point of Piggy’s spectacles to the outside world or environment.
Piggy’s spectacles are a beacon of hope for the marooned boys. Actually, the only hope. It is their sole way to survive and be rescued. It is an important way of cooking and constructing their diet. And later, when the evil of man corrupts the beings of the island, the glasses are a source of power. More accurately, supremacy.
Obviously, those dim-witted boys on the island only have the spectacles to help them in their conquest of creating a dance of flame. And that is all they have to aid them. They can only pray fervently that their mere wisp of dying fire can be seen by their guardian angels. Thus, as the story progresses, and as disdain, desperation, and disregard tightens its scornful grip on the boys, the glasses now represents more than just a matchstick. Much more. This even has j.Merridew filch the glasses from Piggy, and place it first in priority to the once-coveted conch, which is now seen as redundant trash. The glasses soon turns out to really help them to be salvaged, with Jack setting the entire island on fire to scorch Ralph to a fiery doom, but the smoke resulting from this inferno, serves as a salient signal for some passing transport.
Piggy’s glasses, as mentioned in my introductory paragraph, helps them in their diet. Awkwardly so. We see that the glasses helps them to start a fire, which helps them to cook their pig that they so much want to eat. If not, they would not be eating their ‘well-done medium steak’, but rather raw chunks of blood and a squishy substance. And if not, they would carry on with their diet of rotten bananas, dead coconuts, and any other obscene thing one can find. They most probably would have died before help came knocking at their door. The other two points have been mostly explained in the first paragraph.
Piggy’s spectacles somehow also symbolize the partial role of Simon, which is of law and order. The spectacles also show logic and the proper reasoning of the binds of civilization. When the spectacles first crack, it forebodes the start of the many misfortunate things that await. And things change from bad to worse. When the spectacles are broken, soon enough, a little cute bunch of young boys start running, screaming and drawing graffiti on their small faces, and start gallivanting around like daft idiots.
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Post by 2candrewwong01 on Apr 10, 2008 3:11:33 GMT -5
Hi guys, just wanted to share some of my opinions...
1) What is social order? How does it come about on the island? Social order as many of my friends have kindly defined is something that happens when there is a activity, or an organisation or institution, that enforces order and decorum. This comes right after the conch was blown and a meeting was called. Firstly, Piggy was told to get a namelist of all the survivors. This is to keep a track on every single one of them and also to distinguish them; a improvised form of identification. This by itself is a very civilized manner initiated by Ralph, but never carried out by Piggy. After that, a meeting is started and Ralph made it a point that whoever had the conch had authority at that moment. Ralph was also elected chief later by all the other kids. Although the voting wasn¡¯t that civilized and was rather noisy, at least, democracy was taken into consideration, and a simple election took place.
2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig? Ok, when Jack just landed on the island, he was just a normal, arrogant British boy but a rather adventurous one too. When he and his choir people were at the first meeting, he offered to be the leader of the hunters and Ralph agreed(which was a great mistake). When he set off and first stumbled on that pig, he probably couldn¡¯t bear to kill it, because maybe he thought about the suffering it would endure and also because he was child and could have been rather afraid to brutally kill the pig, although he would progress to be a savage hunter later on in the book.
3) What is the significance of the conch? The conch mainly signifies authority and superiority. In this case, Ralph decides to implement this rule that whoever and whenever someone has the conch, he has the right to speak and people should listen to that person. This is a lot like the real world. When someone older or wiser or just of a higher rank (e.g. Your boss), one ought to listen to what that person is saying. In the same way, Ralph uses it to express authority. Ralph also uses it as a sort of call when it was first blown in the beginning of the story hoping to find other survivors from the plane crash.
4) What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles? Piggy¡¯s spectacles are probably considered the most important and precious item on the whole island at that time. It is the main instrument to start fires both for cooking and most importantly, their smoke signals to have a chance for rescue. Piggy¡¯s specs could signify the key to success in the real world as it is their key to survival and rescue. Piggy¡¯s specs also carries the sense of intelligence as my friend Nick has said, ¡°The spectacles give Piggy a scholastic appearance, which suits him rather well, as he is taken as the more rational and intellectual member of the group.¡± and gives piggy an intelligent appearance as he was the only person on the island who wore specs.
This also sets him apart from the rest and ya, I conclude my post.
If you have any comments about my post, I would be glad to hear them.
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 10, 2008 4:49:25 GMT -5
I refer to Tian wen's post on his comment about my post. Firstly, I would like to clarify that what i was trying to say is (1)the conch signifies authority. (2)The conch helps the boys to learn to be independent. Hence, I was not trying to say that authority leads to independence!! "Furthermore, I personally feel that the conch also signifies authority and it can also help the boys to learn to be independent. " The 'it' in my this sentence does not refer to authority, but it refers to the conch. Therefore, i had never wanted to say that authority leads to independence. What i was trying to say is that the conch signifies authority and the conch also helps the boys to learn to be independent. Thank you, Terre Chua 2B29
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