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Post by S2Lit2008HCI on Mar 28, 2008 4:10:26 GMT -5
1) "I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. O God I want to go home." Why is Ralph so frightened of 'us'?
2) Jack is called "Chief" by the boys now. Why is it important that he no longer uses his given name?
3) What has the dance come to mean to Jack's tribe?
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Post by 2cjaredkoh13 on Apr 13, 2008 7:40:24 GMT -5
1) "I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. O God I want to go home." Why is Ralph so frightened of 'us'?
The little, once innocent group of well civilised boys have became savages.
Their imprints of civilisation have been washed away due to the long period of stay in the island and the constant exposure to bloodshed due to hunting.
Thus, Ralph is afraid that the savage character might burst out of control and take over all of them completely eventually.
2) Jack is called "Chief" by the boys now. Why is it important that he no longer uses his given name?
The other boys which overthrew Ralph might go back to Ralph since the word 'Chief' makes them remember that Ralph was the original chief and that the boys were wrong in overthrowing Ralph.
This would lead to Jack's plan of creating another faction to a failure. Thus, Jack no longer used this name.
3) What has the dance come to mean to Jack's tribe?
It means a celebration of the death of their feast.
Whenever, they catch or pretend to have caught the prey, they do this dance as if to celebrate their catch.
At first, this seems to be the celebration ritual but slowly it evolved to become a taboo among the civilisation of boys.
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 14, 2008 1:40:13 GMT -5
Hi all,
Jared, your claim that "constant exposure to bloodshed due to hunting causes "The little, once innocent group of well civilised boys have became savages."Constant exposure to bloodshed is not the only cause of savagery. Rather, it is the violence and sadistic action of killing that causes the the boys to descend into savagery more than the sight of blood. Yes, blood is commonly associated with gore and violence (blood is gore) , but in the context of this book, the action of killing is perhaps the more important factor hat contributes to the boy's descend into savagery. This can be suppported by the by the violent killing of Simon in the Movie, the part where robert is treated like a pig ( and the hunters chant "kill the pig! Cut her throat! Bash her in !)
As such,blood is not a very significant factor contributing to the boys' descend into savagery.
Do post any comments
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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Post by 2cangrayyan03 on Apr 14, 2008 6:27:05 GMT -5
Hi All, Here are my replies and thoughts:
1)
In the first place, before answering this question, we must first define 'us'. 'us', in this case, refers to all the boys who have seen or taken part in the "bloody dance" (mentioned by Piggy on p. 193), which of course, had resulted in Simon's pitiful death. Now , the boys, they were so carried away with the dance that they actually killed someone, thinking it was the beast.So this 'us' is very scary, and Ralph refers to it as 'us' is because he saw the procedure, but refused to admit it, trying to deny together with Piggy that they were "outside" and saw nothing, which makes them feel guilty.
So with the defined 'us', let's move on. Ralph is so frightened of us is firstly because he has seen it. However he did not help Simon, who got killed by the tribe. This has obviously created a sense of guilt and helplessness, unable to stop the tribe from murder. This was a rather, short-termed view of matters. to me, what worried Ralph most is the miserable fact that since Ralph was no longer Chief, with Jack now being respected, he was afraid that he would land up in Simon's fate. This is making Ralph extremely worried, wondering what he could do to prevent such tradegy, which in the end, he did have the same fate, though saved by the Dues Ex Machina Ending (It is all because he has lost SamnEric, the fellow companions loyal to him) .
This, in the end, led him to something he remembered long, long ago. Home. What a home offered, was invaluable as that point in time: security, warmth, comfort, civilization (perhaps) , many others. It also kinds of lifts some guilt off him, for at home he knew that he would never have seen or done that. Now , who could help him go home? God. Thus, comes that exclaiming sentence by Ralph, to soothe his soul, after what he believed he did something he didn't intend to.
2)
(NB: The following paragraph is from a hunter's view)
This word, "Chief" , for Jack helps clear the followers' minds off Ralph's pathetic ways in helping everyone . Erasing this off their memory helps them to think ahead of their future, what they have been promised, what this new "Chief" was to do, which would prove to them all that Ralph is virtually Useless.It gives us a signal that someone would be there to lead us to greater heights, and with the mindset of having fun, this leader will sure bring a lot of benefits for us. Whats more, This new Chief has got a Fort, Ralph's only got a beach, and this new leader would definitely give us a place called home on this island. We respect him, and calling him "Chief" is something right, and something we, as members of the tribe, should do.
The above is all from a hunter's perspective, of what I think hunters would think, which generates the above paragraph. So, lets talk about it from my own perspective now. "Chief" gives the sense that Jack is powerful and Ralph is not, and with this word, "Chief" , is kinds of give an impression that there is someone called "Chief" to give directions to people, help them obtain their needs and wants, proving to be a more viable "chief" than the previous one, Ralph. Of course, this shows that they need AND want Jack more than Ralph, for none of those in the tribe (Except for SamnEric), have their focus place on rescue. In stead, they place it on the Ralph's other objective, have fun. Jack promises hunting and thrilling adventures ERalph would have never led, and thus Jack, by popularity, preceeds over Ralph.
All I have been saying is why he should be called "Chief", so now I will give some reasons why he should not be called "Jack" instead. Firstly, gaining the respects of his tribe members, I am sure the tribe members respect him, and wouldn't dare call his real name, Jack. Second, this word makes other think Jack's powerful. During Ralph's not-so-good domination (in my view), he has rarely been called chief, except , probably by Piggy and during the voting he was called Chief. So, obviously, Jack would not follow Ralph's footsteps. Now , a third and last reason is due to Jack's character. He is arrogrant, grabbing power whenever he can, and always try to be a leader. Now, with so many people respecting him, surely if you do not call him "Chief", he would think lowly of you, and that particular member may get exiled like Ralph, left to be hunted. It is more of the fear of Jack perhaps than the respect that makes others call him "chief".
To conclude, by calling Jack "Chief" and not "Jack", it is made clear that Jack is respected, owns the tribe and implies the idea of "who is the boss here (jack of course) " and "Do not mess with me", making Jack's social status on this island go higher than Ralph's throughout the whole story.
3)
The dance firstly and most important use of this particular use of this dance gives courage. In this chapter that is one very specific example. It is when Jack, Roger and Maurice try to steal the fire from Ralph for their cooking purposes. And before that during the meeting, Maurice asked what they would do if they encountered them (Ralph, Piggy SamnEric) . Jack simply replied that they would do the dance, even if there is only three of them. Now, just the three of them , and this actually sort of removed all doubts, showing this dance's power on the whole tribe, for they never questioned back. Thus, what I would like to state firstly is that this dance helps to boost the morale of the whole tribe, and thus they would perform better in a way. (All adapted or retrieved from p. 199)
Secondly, this dance acts as something to remind them of their cause, what they are dedicated to , as well as to strengthen the bonds in the tribe. Now, note that during this dance there was this repeated phrase : "Kill the beast! CUt his throat! Spill his blood!" (p. 229 and others). This kept them clear of their goal, kill, kill more, and kill even more. With such a mentality, this tribe would firstly be a bunch of savages "ready to strike". Second, with such a common goal in mind, this is what united them in the first place, and re-enforcing this would naturally make the tribe closer together, facing all dangers in unity. This dance also strengthens their beliefs, which made them more "dedicated to" the tribe, which is why throughout the whole story, no one left the tribe.
Finally, as one of the 2 objectives Ralph mentioned, let them have fun. Besides all the adventure and stuff, the dance is another way to let them have fun. Do note that hunting has tired them all, with the hot pursuit of pigs, and thus the dance also kinds of releases stress, and from everyday duty like guarding the fort. It helps give them something in mind, what they are working for, and with the fact of the so many benefits other than this dance (although it does not affect much) , no one would want the leave the tribe, and this dance keeps the tribe "alive".
Any comments would be welcomed, especially for the 2nd question. And, Thank you for reading this post.
Regards, Ray Yan
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Post by 2afanyi10 on Apr 15, 2008 6:39:07 GMT -5
Hi all, Fe here. Here are my answers of the three questions:
1) "I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. O God I want to go home." I feel that Ralph was frightened as he and the other boys who took part in the dance ("us") actually mistook Simon for the beast and killed him. He was frightened as he knew that everyone there had lost control during the dance, thus they did not even think properly when Simon appeared. Also, Ralph might have felt that everyone was "changing" the longer they stayed on the island. Everyone was going wilder and less orderly in their ways and they even started to have a "war dance" like a tribe of savages. Ralph was frightened as he was afraid that without law and order from an adult, one day he or another person might do something horrible again. Thus, he was frightened as there were no rules on the island and the boys were turning into savage. 2) Jack was now being called "Chief" as he was no longer part of Ralph's "lot", thus he wanted to be called "Chief" in order to show that the was the leader among the boys, not Ralph. Being called "Chief" also showed that Ralph was a useless leader as he was the original Chief, not Jack. This brought about the feeling among the boys under Jack that Ralph was useless, since he was not able to prevent Jack from breaking away from the group, or to stop him from becoming a Chief who might one day fight with him. There was another reason for Jack to be called "Chief", not simply Jack. This was because being called a chief showed more authority than Jack needed to have. Also, calling a person's name showed that you are somewhat close to him. Calling Jack chief would mean that he would high up while the other boys would be below his feet, obeying him. (That's why Roger "sharpened a stick at both ends" in the last chapter, probably to kill Jack and be the chief after they killed Ralph.) Apart from that, calling Jack his name would remind him of his "original" side. I suppose Jack still had a feeling that waht he did was wrong deep down, (perhaps that's why he broke down in the end?) thus he wanted others to call him "Chief" so as not to remind him of his innocent side. Moreover, calling Jack "Chief" showed his evil side, as the title of the book, "Lord of the Flies", referred to Beelzebub, which could also mean "Chief Devil". Thus, "Chief" meant the short form for chief devil. Calling Jack that meant that he was already a devil in his heart. 3) I feel that the dance that Jack's tribe performed meant that they were getting further away from law and order. This was due to the fact that tribal dnace were normally perfromed by savages, suggesting Jack and his tribe's were becoming savages themselves. Also, the dance somewhat encouraged the boys as they celebrated over their kill. This probably made the boys wanting for more, thus they would not leave Jack and go back to Ralph.
Openus, Fan Yi
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Post by 2bmarcel16 on Apr 20, 2008 5:55:31 GMT -5
I shall be answering question 1 and 2.
1)"I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. O God I want to go home." Why is Ralph so frightened of 'us'?
Ralph is afraid because he had felt in himself the savagery that had consumed him in that moment that he had wanted to join the demented society. He could also be frightened as he had seen the extent to which the hunters obeyed Jack and how helpless he himself was when confronted by Jack. He believed that he had a hand in Simon's death and this led to him thinking that he had become like Jack, consumed by savagery. He fears that should that be the case, he would lose sight of the ultimate goal, which is to get smoke, so that they could be rescued.
2) Jack is called "Chief" by the boys now. Why is it important that he no longer uses his given name? It is significant that he no longer uses his given name as his name has become to him like a tag that identified him as a civilized 'coward'(he called Ralph that).Like the painted mask, everything that he does from that point on ward was to hide his identity.Not to others, but to himself. He could no longer accept that he was once like Ralph, and he wishes whole-heartedly to embrace his newfound identity as Chief. Another reason is that taking the title from Ralph might have given him pleasure as it showed him that his views were "correct"(popular). He might have felt that he was just getting back the title that he deserved.
Thank You
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Post by 2aedmondchen04 on Apr 20, 2008 8:12:07 GMT -5
Here are my answers for the 3 questions:
1) Ralph has come to realise that they('us') were no longer the bunch of kids he knew. They have totally transformed into savages with the least of childhood innocence and sanity. To him, seeing Jack and his tribe kill people one by one is a torture. Slowly, his 'members' get brutally murdered by whom they call 12 year old kids. He seeks maturity, sanity, and the 'old(as in past) kid in them'. He knows they have gone too wild, and their next prey will be himself, sooner or later. Also, i would like to correct marcel's point on Ralph's fear of not getting smoke to be rescued. He does not care whether they get rescued or not. Now, instead of looking at the big picture, he being forced to his wits end, has no time to bother about keeping a fire(smoke). His primary concern is his safety.
2) Im not too sure regarding this question but ill just give it a try 'Chief' in this case, represents power and authority. He, formally a leader in his school, prefers very much to lead rather than to follow. He wanted power. Also, Jack would just be any other common name like Roger and Robert. He wanted to be different. Another reason would be to show the change in roles between Ralph and Jack. Ralph is no longer chief, and his position has been taken over by Jack. Thus Jack wanted to be called Chief so as to show he is now the leader, and Ralph is nothing but any other boy on the island.
3) The dance not only mean Courage, but also to make them more distant from civilisation and to move towards wildness(savage). Each time they carry out the dance, the more bold they become, and so do their civilised and cultured behavior take a turn for the worse. They no longer were the boys when they first landed on the island. Rather they have become savages as their evil side gets revealed. The dance gave them more courage each time, giving them the 'boost' to kill, which, even many adults cannot do.
Open to constructive comments. Thanks Edmond
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Post by 2bjosephlim10 on Apr 22, 2008 9:15:22 GMT -5
Hello all 1) "I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. O God I want to go home." Why is Ralph so frightened of 'us'? Ralph is frightened of "us" because the "us" refers to the savages, and not the once innocent, good-natured British boys when they had arrived on the island on chapter 1. The savages are no longer civilised, instead, they care only about hunting, bloodshed, no longer to be rescued. Since Ralph and his group is the only ones "opposing" to Jack's ideals, the savages, now under Jack, will go all out to get Ralph and the others. 2) Jack is called "Chief" by the boys now. Why is it important that he no longer uses his given name? Chief, means leader, in this case, leader of the savages. Jack uses this new term to project his authority to the others, to show that he is now in command, not Ralph. He also rather not call himself Jack so as to not remember his old identity, the good natured Jack, in order to be a savage and a hunter. 3) What has the dance come to mean to Jack's tribe? The dance now becomes part of a culture in Jack's tribe. It has become a custom now. This is perhaps partly to so called "keep the tribe close together" so that they wont go back to Ralph's group. Another reason for the dance is to celebrate a successful hunt. Regards Joseph
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Post by 2chuyongda10 on Apr 26, 2008 5:22:47 GMT -5
Hi, I will be posting about question 1. 1) "I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. O God I want to go home." Why is Ralph so frightened of 'us'? "Us" refers to all the children on the island. Ralph became afraid of the children because they turned into a totally different person. When they first arrived on the island, they were very disorganized and frightened. After Ralph became the chief, order was restored to certain extent but up till chapter nine, the once innocent and pure children had turned bloodthirsty savages. The most important event that traumatised Ralph and made him afraid of the children was when they killed Simon in a moment of bloodthirst. The event showed that the barbaric personality within the children blinded them and made them behave in such a brutal way. Thus, Ralph felt greatly disturbed and was afraid of what the children can do next.
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Post by 2b27pangshiang on Apr 30, 2008 7:17:01 GMT -5
1) "I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. O God I want to go home."Why is Ralph so frightened of 'us'?
Ralph is frightened of "us", the boys themselves, as the unruliness and savagery within them was emerging, and Ralph could see that and he wanted to "go home" to the sanctuary of law and order in civilization.
In this chapter, preceding the quote, Simon was killed in the dance that the hunters did. Though it was later known that the hunters thought it was the Beast, such brutal killing is not seen in an adolescent and since this brutal action is shown, Ralph feels that Jack and his tribe are too savage and unruly to be able to live with and hence fears the brutality in them.
Ralph also fears that he himself had such brutal spirit that was waiting to be unleashed and fears the moment it escapes. For example, he was once overcome with bloodlust when they were hunting the pigs and he feels an unholy pleasure when he succeeds in hurting the pig and exclaims in delight. He also took part in the dance that cost Simon his life, though he fails to face that fact. Thus this shows that he also had brutality in himself and fears that it will escape him to transform his old, docile self into a savage monster like Jack.
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Post by 2b27pangshiang on Apr 30, 2008 9:17:51 GMT -5
2) Jack is called "Chief" by the boys now. Why is it important that he no longer uses his given name?
Jack is called Chief as this name instills a form of respect into people, just as one would call a teacher mr, miss or mrs. As such Jack is called "chief" as he demands respect from his subordinates. Jack also wants a mask to hide behind, to change his identity to that of a powerful creature and the title suits him as his name is not mentioned and instead he is a chief.
Jack also sees being addressed by name is a form of weakness as he felt that his people would not have discipline and they would go against his rules, thus making him a weak chief. This was his observation in Ralph's leadership and what made him fail in controlling his people.
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Post by 2b19qiyun on May 1, 2008 7:36:46 GMT -5
(1) 'Us' probably refers to the evil that had emerged from within them. This first appeared when Jack killed a pig, fulfilling his ambition to kill one. But instead of being satisfied, having had a taste of the glory and sense of fulfillment it brought him, he would continue to kill. As there was ample supply of food on the island, it might be that Jack wanted to kill pigs as the evil inside him had emerge and fueled his lust for killing. Ralph is frightened of what the evil within would do. He also fears to let the evil within to have control over him.
Thx, RQY
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Post by 2amarcusgohsy12 on May 3, 2008 4:05:09 GMT -5
Hi all,
1) Everyone has turned very violent, killing pigs and even hurting humans. They are no longer what they were like in the start of the novel, where Jack was the leader of the choir.
2) It is important that Jack is not called the name he was given because he thought he should be given respect, as the contributed alot.
Marcus Goh
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Post by 2c30sunyu on May 4, 2008 4:25:46 GMT -5
(1) "I'm frightened. Of us. I want to go home. O God I want to go home." Why is Ralph so frightened of 'us'?Answer:In this context, the "us" refers to the group of boys which had turned into savages and had totally changed since the day they first arrived on the island. The group of boys in Jack's tribe had killed Simon. Now, Ralph just could not get over the death of Simon. He had a presentiment of something bad is going to happen and continue on as days went by. He is afraid that maybe they (Ralph and Piggy) will also ended up like Simon -- their fate may be like Simon in the end because: - The boys had lost their civilised instinct and is willing to murder and be like a savage and be barbaric.
- As they are not in Jack's tribe, it is like a war between two countries -- Jack will find a good chance to kill and murder them.
Thus, Ralph was very frighten of that and wanted to go home as soon as possible as he hope that the worst would not happen. Cheers, Sun Yu
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Post by 2bongyuhao17 on May 6, 2008 3:33:24 GMT -5
1) This is so because Ralph have started to realise that the boys are starting to lose themselves. Especially Jack and his band of choirs. They are now engaged in much more savage acts like performing rituals and having facepaint. This made the boys so terrifying that Ralph feels afraid of "us". In this case, the "us" also includes Ralph. Ralph is frightened because he knows that he is losing the power to control the boys and Ralph himself also feels that he himself is inclined to savagery like Jack and his team after having particpated in the hunt with Jack and during the hunt, Ralph was no different from a savage. Piggy in this case is excluded from this "us" as there are no evidences throughout the book that Piggy is the kind of boy that terrorises people. Simon would also be effectively excluded given that he too showed no signs of his inclination towards the savage side.
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