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Post by 2Cyangyi32 on Apr 27, 2008 3:02:38 GMT -5
Hey all,
I shall be answering Question 1.
1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?
To begin with, grown-ups to Piggy, are more of just a simple slang of adults in general. What he means by "grown-ups" is actually persons of authority, such as their teachers or parents.
In the later part of the chapter, when Jack leads the rest of the boys along the beach away from the assembly, Piggy says "What's grown-ups going to say?" "Look at'em!" In this example, Piggy refers to grown-ups as people who could comment, criticise, and above all, pass judgement on the boys' behaviour. This shows his respect towards them and their authority over young boys like himself.
In the last part of the chapter, Piggy says that "at home there was always a grown-up. Please sir, please, miss, and you got an answer. How I wish!" This is said in a tone of longing and despair. Piggy wishes that there was a grown-up, an adult possessed of some authority to facilitate matters. He also claims that adults settle things in an orderly manner, after having tea and a discussion. Although this is blatantly untrue of adults, Piggy's statements express his view of adults in general and his longing to have an adult there with the boys to control order. Also, this lets readers understand the value Piggy sees in the opinions of adults, concerning their current problems. He seems to feel that as long as there was an adult there with the boys on the island, things would be alright. The three boys also try to convey the "majesty of adult life", which in turn conveys the message that they admire the authority of the adult, and wish that they could send a message over as to what to do with their group of boys. The three boys assume that adults would not quarrel or bicker, or in essentials, do what all the boys are prone to doing. This elevates adults in general to the highest spot of maturity and authority in the boys' minds, which is why, in conclusion, Piggy wanted an adult, a "grown-up" to be there with them on the island.
Cheers, Yang Yi
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Post by 2b26tayhanyang on Apr 29, 2008 11:42:04 GMT -5
Hi all, I will be attempting question 3.
3) How is it significant that the boys now conceive of the 'Beastie' as one that comes from water as opposed to their previous concept of it?
This just goes out to show that what the boys fear is just what they imagine in their own mind. After all, they are in a strange island and the littluns, more likely to have a vast imagination, will start to think of monsters, especially in the night. When the littluns thought there was a beast in chapter 4, it was actually just Simon in the dark. Therefore, the boys will have different perception of this monster, when it was actually just a monster merely created by the fear in their mind. As the littluns did not know how to swim, they start thnking of this beast from the water, as they will be unable to swim if they got caught by the "monster", if there was even one. Thus, this conception of the beast is from the water just showed that they boys tried to replace their meaningless fear (towards the unkown, the island?) with a non-existant monster.
Also, Jack started to use this fear, to gain influence gradually. As he was the one who was most likely to be able to hunt down the monster(in their minds), they had to depend on him for survival. Using this, he slowly had control and influnece over these boys
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Post by 2c06wengsiang on Apr 30, 2008 8:37:51 GMT -5
Hi all, I'm here to post an answer to question three.
3) How is it significant that the boys now conceive of the 'Beastie' as one that comes from water as opposed to their previous concept of it?
In Chapter five, the children's fear of the Beast significantly increases. I beleive that this is because of the new discovery that the Beast comes from the sea. The sea is really mysterious to the boys, as can be seen from the passage when one of the littleuns stated that ".. they haven't found all the animals in the sea yet." This intensifies the fear and belief of the Beast, compared to when it was beleived to be living on land. This is probably because previously when the Beast was supposed to be living on the island, a thorough check of the island could prove that the Beast was non-existent but now, the Beast is said to be living in water, and thus can come and go as it likes. The Beast also cannot be proved non-existent now as the biguns cannot explore the depths of the sea.
>.< Weng Siang
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Post by 2b27pangshiang on May 3, 2008 4:45:54 GMT -5
3) How is it significant that the boys now conceive of the 'Beastie' as one that comes from water as opposed to their previous concept of it?
The fear of the "Beastie" that comes from the water is very significant in the story as the boys now have a new fear. They do not know what this "Beastie" is or how many there are, as there seems to be one snakelike one and one amphibious one. If it is one "Beastie", they do not know what else can it do other than swim. This fear is significant as it affected the whole society in the long run. It later becomes a supersition for Jack's later tribe and they offer pigs' heads to it regularly. This shows that the fear for the beast is reflected even in the "biguns", showing how greatly this fear is intensified and hence it is very significant.
In the symbolic form, It shows that the savagery of mankind, as represented by the beast, can hail from all places and has many forms. Also, it is greatly feared, as the boys fear it in the story. Hence, the fact that the beast comes from water is greatly significant as it later affects the boys greatly later in the story and has a great symbolic meaning
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Post by 2bmarcuschong03 on May 4, 2008 10:47:09 GMT -5
Hey all,
2)What is meant/implied by "every path was an improvisation"?
I think that this might mean life is wearisome and that every attempts, every path we take are always not good enough, always inevitably having some elements of flaw. Further explaining that nothing in the world is perfect and that there is always room for improvement in anythings we do. It may also show that people in life are being overcautious. It may also show that sometimes people are always doing the same 'things', improvise to make 'things' but not willing to change 'things' to improve them all.
1. No matter how hard you try to face life and its challenges, they will not succeed, evident from Ralph's futile efforts on maintaining law and order, wanting to gain respect/acceptance from the group of boys and upholding civilization. Life is indeed wearisome.
2. Saying that every path is an improvisation, we can see that every step/attempt we take/move needs to be corrected and improved. Therefore it obviously implies that nothing in life is perfect.
3. It shows people are being overcautious too as from the quote "where every path was an improvisation and a considerable part of one's waking life was spent watching one's feet." We can see that people spent lots of their precious time thinking about consequences, positive or negative impacts, benefits/losses, advantages/disadvantages before making a decision, or taking a step/an action to do somethings. Thus it may imply that people are overcautious.
4. In the story, we can see that Ralph always wanted to maintain law, order and civilization. He keeps doing things to succeed his aim, being civilized, showing how well being civilized is, improvise sometimes to avoid further descend into savagery of the others. Example, consolation and rejection to the idea of the existence of the beast the boys were worrying about , blowing the conch shell for gatherings, making signal fires. Up to this point of the story, he hasn't succeed in his goal, he keeps doing the same 'things' , improvise on the 'things' but not changing the 'things' he does. He thought through and finally decides he need to join them although they are demented. He finally changes the 'things' he does, joining in the rituals, hunting, even involved in the killing of Simon later on. No involvement in civilization, no more. Although in the end, he hadn't much succeeded in his goal but at least he gained some respect and acceptance by the others. So maybe this is also what is implied by "every path was an improvisation". ( Sorry I know this point isn't well expressed. Hope you understands).
Regards, Marcus Chong 2B03
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Post by 2akennethleong14 on May 5, 2008 2:30:09 GMT -5
i will answer question 1 first =)
1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy? I tink that the grown-ups represent law and order, intectual supriority and the ability to priortise and do what is right. Their opinion is important to piggy because he strongly believes in doing first things first and acting proper. Piggy wants to mantain law and order on the island and piggy sees the grown-up's behaviour as the correct way to to behave themselves
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Post by 2akennethleong14 on May 5, 2008 2:35:08 GMT -5
2 :What is meant/implied by "every path was an improvisation"? It meant that we humans are being overly careful to whatever we do but no matter how careful we are, if we do not manage our moral values well, there will be dire consequences. For us humans, we are extremely careful in whatever we do so as not to be on the wrong side of the law or to tarnish our own reputation. We will always think twice in whatever we do.
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Post by 2climshengyang20 on May 11, 2008 11:31:42 GMT -5
Hi guys,
I will like to answer the first question. 1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?
In my opinion, "grown-ups" represent a "leader" who is the only one capable of directing the boys into what is right and what is wrong and maintaining law and order.
From the chapter or should i say the book, we can see that the boys are slowly moving away from the civilisation and started to be savagery with their chanting and their desire to have meat, to the extent that they had forgotten rescue was the most essential piriority. Piggy felt that only a grown-up is able to control the boys into reigning them back to the right track - to continue to work on the fire - for rescue, and not to go hunting for the whole day and even abandon their piriority.
Hence, Piggy felt that having a grown-up is very important as only at his/her present, the boys are able to focus on the tasks they are assigned to work on and not be carried away in unimportant tasks that can be accomplished some other time such as hunting. Furthermore, hunting is not as important as there are still fruits around the island and meat is not a necessity.
In conclusion, a grown-up is able to control the boys in doing what is the right thing to do at different time and prevent chaos in breaking out unneccessarily.
ShengYang
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Post by 2cangenming02 on May 12, 2008 4:25:34 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
Here is my post on question 1. 1) The grown-ups represent the control over different things and they also represent and contain all the solutions to the boys' problems. In this chapter, we find Ralph having many difficulties in his attempt to lead the boys. He finds himself so helpless and in despair that he even thinks of giving up the leadership. He wishes for a message from the grown-up world. This is evident from how he mentions that "at home, there was always a grown-up" and "I wish my father" can be there to send them their solutions to their problems and assist them.
Similarly, the opinion of the "grown-ups" is very important to Piggy. He asserts that "grown-ups know things" and they "ain't afraid of the dark. They'd meet and have tea and discuss. Then things 'ud be all right - - ". Hence Ralph desires for the help of the grown-ups and cries desperately, "If only they could get a message to us," and "If only they could get a message to us," and "If only they could send us something grown-up . . . a sign or something".
Regards, Ang En Ming
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Post by 2cgalileoyap07 on May 28, 2008 5:27:51 GMT -5
1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy? Piggy, as we know has the most knowledge and know-how in the group of boys. The fact that Piggy has knowledge shows that he knows the importance of grown-ups in regulating the society, as they are obviously more mature and experienced in handling things. They also represent order, law, morals and such that are common in our society today. Without grown-ups, we would not have their valuable advice, and we would not get any form of approval or any thing whatsoever. This was dangerous in that the children would not wholly understand the makings of a stable society, and how to maintain it, as they do not have any experience whatsoever. Grown-ups know better what is right and what is wrong. Thus, we can say that Piggy's knowledge was at least sufficient for him to fully understand the importance of having grown-ups in the picture.
w00t, Galileo Yap
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Post by 2btanzhirong25 on May 30, 2008 7:38:24 GMT -5
Here are my comments. thanks.
1) To all of us, grown-ups are someone who is more mature, smarter, wiser that us, kids. Grown-ups are also better than us in many other ways. They are able to make good decisions, lead the whole bunch of people, and they are a lot more intelligent and not as lazy as the boys on the island are. In piggy's mind, Grown-ups are adults that have the authority to control the group. Piggy feels that the grown-ups will not imagine things like the littluns do, they will not ignore serious matters and play like what the littluns do. They are able to analysis situations and not jump to conclusions like the boys did about the beasts. Piggy also feels that a adult's opinion is very important. He believes that if there is an adult/grown-up that is able to give them his opinions, good suggestions, guide them along about what they are doing now, it will let them know whether if they are wrong at handling the matters.
If there is a grown-up on the island, it will be much better as he will be able to lead them, to control them, not let so much chaos happen as a grown-up always have the "authority". A grown-up is also able to let the boys feel safe and protected, and assure them that there are no beasts on the island at all (The problem that is arising in the tribe now, which ralph is unable to solve.) , which will not let them be so afraid and scared in the first place. (Generally it was also because there was no adults on the island, that is why the littluns feel unsafe and start to imagine beasts.) Based on my opinion, Piggy often believe that a adult's words are for their own good and thus Piggy treat their words very seriously. He hope that there will be a adult present when matters begin to fall out of hand, as he believe that only the grown-ups will really have the capability and ability to solve these problems.
3) Originally, the byos believed that the beast comes from the strange island that they are not familar with. However, the new concept now is that the beast comes from the sea, the deep and huge sea. Because of this, it generally worsen the situation on the island as the boys began to get even more afraid by this, despite the fact that this monster was just a imaginary one caused by their deepest fears. Now, the boys are even more afraid and worried when they conceived that the beast come from the sea, with the biguns even wondering whether all of this is true. This is because of the fact that the sea is considered mysterious to them. The sea is very large and there had been many ancient stories about sea monsters, which may worsen the feelings and make the boys feel even more worried. Similarly, if the beast is from the sea, the boys will think that they will not be able to capture it as the beast can come onland and went back to the sea any time it wants, which make them more fearful of this mysterious beast. The boys are now also unable to prove that the beast does not exist as they could not possibly search the sea for the beast, which they can do so if the beast comes on land.
This new idea that the beast comes from the sea works against Ralph. This is because at the beginning, Ralph have been trying to convince that the beast does not exist and they are just imagining things, in order to keep peace and let them stop worrying. However, when the new idea is conceived, everyone began to get even more worried and even more fearful than before, destroying Ralph's attempt. However, this actually helps Jack as he is able to make use of the littluns' fear to turn them to his side and let them feel that he was the only one that can protect them from the beast.
Zhi Rong
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Post by 2b23kevin on Jun 13, 2008 11:30:12 GMT -5
1) Grown-ups represent the ultimate source of authority and thus whatever they say is logical and is good for the people. Since they are logical and think things through clearly before acting, they also are the judges of the people. Besides just sitting there and thinking, the grown-ups also are able to enforce their decisions thus making the decisions effective. As the boys go more and more savage, Piggy feels the need of having an adult to take control even more, which also translates into Piggy wanting an opinion of an adult to quickly solve this crisis they are in.
Piggy has the thinking of the grown-ups, but unfortunately, he has little or no means to make people listen to a good idea he has come up with, let alone implementing it or enforcing it. This may be another reason why Piggy holds grown-ups in high regard.
2) The phrase might mean that every decision that Ralph made, the method that the boys were supposed to follow to achieve what the desired outcome of the decision was compromised and thus, the boys do not or partially achieve the desired outcome. An example would be the signal fire. The boys watching the fire ran off to do some hunting with Jack and let the signal fire out, thus denying the boys rescue.
This phrase might mean that humans are flawed and that there is no such thing as a perfect plan. Things will not go as planned due to various reasons and thus we have to adapt and improvise to try to obtain the best optimum outcome.
3) The island the boys were on was tiny and so the area of which the beast could live in was small. However, the island is surrounded by a vast ocean, with no other land in sight. This significantly broadens the location where the beast could be at. When the beast was on the land, they boys had a higher chance of locating and killing it, but now the beast is in the water , locating the beast would be impossible. Thus, there was no direct way to eliminate the threat to the boys. To the boys, the beast would just keep coming and coming to kill them. As the ocean was much bigger than the island, it gives the boys the impression that the beast was larger than they had originally thought and increased their fears.
When people fear something, they want something to protect them. Thus the boys turn towards Jack and his hunters. They are the ones with the weapons. They are the ones who are the fittest. Since they are the biguns, the littleuns look up to them even more. Ralph to them was a person who obeyed laws and sat there and just gave orders. In this way, Jack's appeal to the boys seem more and more attractive than Ralph, robbing him of some power.
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Jun 18, 2008 7:30:36 GMT -5
Hi all, Kevin, your post was rather vague and ambiguous. Could you place more focus on the "humans are flawed and that there is no such thing as a perfect plan"?
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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Post by sdfsdfs on Jan 20, 2009 22:45:58 GMT -5
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Post by reterte on Jan 20, 2009 22:47:37 GMT -5
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