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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 12, 2008 8:49:22 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I will be answering question 3 now. I strongly agree with Yuhao's and Alcander's posts (for question 3) but I would like to add some more of my own points. There is the case of 'paranoiac' when the boys now conceive of the Beastie as one that comes from the water. I think that it's because of the fact that the Beastie is supposedly living in the water that makes the boys paranoid and frightened because obviously, not everyone can swim very well (in water) and thus they are frightened because the beastie will have an upper hand if there was a fight in the water. Also, by conceiving that the beast comes from the water, this makes the boys scared and suspicious of everything and everyone keeps their guard up all the time. Hence, the atmosphere becomes tenser than before. Secondly, there is an issue of manipulation. Jack uses the fear created by the Beastie to manipulate the boys to become his zombie-like hunters. From the boys' point of view, Jack, in the time of crisis, seems to be the hero while making Ralph as the bad guy. Of course, Jack has cleverly manipulated the boys and now exerts a huge influence over them. Thank you. I will be answering the other question later. Regards, Wen Kang.
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Post by 2candrewwong01 on Apr 13, 2008 3:52:26 GMT -5
Hi, I will be attempting question 1 first. 1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy? In the real world, grown ups usually represent maturity, intellect, law and order and most importantly to kids, people that enforce rules and discipline. Children mostly look to grown ups for help when they need it and also obey them when they are told to do something by the adults, basically, their role models. Piggy himself really admires grown-ups and the things they have accomplished. Piggy also gets most of his common sense and logic from adults too. As we know, Piggy often tells the others what adults would do whenever they encountered any problems or dangers. "They aren't afraid of the dark. They meet and have tea and discuss." This quote is about how grown-ups maturely handle whatever indifferences they had. When they found out about the beasts, Piggy just used the knowledge and logic that grown-ups have imparted unto him, saying that there weren’t such things. This shows that he also respects grown-ups a lot and sort of believe everything to say which is rather naïve too. With this, I end my response. Thanks. Andrew Wong, 2C01
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Post by 2cpekjiehui27 on Apr 13, 2008 9:10:47 GMT -5
Hi people.
I will now post my views on question 1.
1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?
Firstly, grown-ups represent boundaries. Without the adults around, the children usually feel very "care free" with no restriction or any control over them. In such circumstances, children will tend to do whatever they want to, sometimes without thinking. This leads to grown-ups being a representation of law and order. Only with the grown-ups around, will the children know their limits and control their actions and thoughts.
Grown-ups also represent intelligence. They are the ones who will know what to do because they have lived in this world for a much longer time than children, thus being more experienced. That is why adults tend to know what to do during problems children cannot solve because they have wither went through it before or have seen it before.
Hence, to Piggy, a grown-up's opinion is important as they are both experienced and mature. Their experience to Piggy can be seen from "They'd meet and have tea and discuss. Then things 'ud be right -" and "They'd build a ship-". Also, their maturity can be seen from "They ain't afraid of the dark", "they wouldn't quarrel - ","or talk about a beast" and "they wouldn't set fire to the island". Therefore, and adult's maturity, experience and intelligence was very important to Piggy as at that point of time, they were the qualities they needed in everyone to get rescued as soon as possible.
That's all for question1. Please post your views and comments.
Regards, Jie Hui
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 14, 2008 2:51:38 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I will be doing question 2 now. I agree with Alcander's points about question 2 but I would like to add more of my own points. 'Improvisation' here means the act of improvising, which means: 1.To invent, compose, or perform something extemporaneously. 2. To make do with whatever materials are at hand. (From dictionary.com) I think that from the definitions, we can see two meanings of the phrase "every path was an improvisation". 1. "Every path was an improvisation" could mean that for every path, you cannot predict what is going to happen, you have to think on the spot and improvise extemporaneously. 2. "Every path was an improvisation" could mean that in life, whatever difficulty comes in your way, you have to improvise, which is to manage in a makeshift way and do with whatever that is at hand. Both examples are interlinked with each other. Evidence for both examples are "He was overcome with astonishment", "found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life" and "a considerable part of one's waking life was spent watching one's feet". This exerts some kind of spiritual feel and could mean that Ralph was astonished that life had no correct answer, there's no way in preparing for life's path. Perhaps he only realised this when he is on the island.
Thank you Regards, Wen Kang
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Post by 2b26tayhanyang on Apr 14, 2008 4:17:46 GMT -5
Hi all, I will be trying my take on question one.
1)
The "grown-ups" as stated in chapter five probably more of represented a figure of authority where there is law an order. To Piggy, these people think more logically. As stated in the book in Piggy's opinion, they won't be afraid of the dark, they won't set fire to the island, but they will build a ship and try to rescue themselves. Therefore to Piggy, these "grown-ups" have a higher intellectual capability and probably won't act like what the group of "immature" boys did . They know things that little boys don't. In this book, Piggy sort of represents a more of intelligent being, civilisation even till his death. He looks up to the grown-ups and are influenced by their opinion. He thinks that the adults would do things for their own good, like his aunt asking him not to run as he has asthma. He was the only person among the boys who had a better judgement of matters, and to him, the adult's way of doing things would always be right to him. Therefore, you could say that Piggy was kind of a person under adults' influence, causing him to think in their shoes too. At that time, this was probably vital to thinking of a way to get them rescued like what Jie Hui said.
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Post by 2b26tayhanyang on Apr 14, 2008 5:51:02 GMT -5
2) "Suddenly, pacing by the water, he was overcome with astonishments. He found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life, where every path was an improvisation and a considerable part of one¡¯s waking life was spent watching one¡¯s feet.¡± , this sentence seems to have different meanings to different people. I have to disagree with Tian Wen and Alcander a bit.
To me, that sentence doesn't mean that humans are being too overcautious. In that context, it was Ralph who thought about this and was astonished to find out what is it about life. And now how it refers to the entrapment of civilisation and how it binds you from commiting crimes, being wary of what you do. Though this might be quite true if you are meaing in the context of the whole book, I think that at the point of time, it probably just meant that every step and decision that Ralph and his group took, was just mere attempts to adapt to the strange and unfamiliar surroundings and atmosphere. However, Ralph instead discovered how weary can life be, as no matter how hard you try to face life and its challenges, they will just fail. Like how Ralph wants everybody to obey the rules, to decide this fear of theirs and the little ones, all of these seemed to be unsettled as Jack starts defying Ralph. However, as they continue to be on the island, nobody was there to control the group of boys, to watch over them. Soon, without any boundaries and laws, they will slowly change from a civilised behaviour and start to become more primitive and savagery. This is with reference to the last part of the quoted sentence. With every step they make, they also slowly to change without the watchful eyes of the adults and the clutches of laws and civilisation as they face each challenge of keeping the whole group together...which may be impossible for the young Ralph, especially with Jack's presence.
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Post by 2cjamesquah28 on Apr 15, 2008 8:13:38 GMT -5
Will be analysing Question 1
Question 1
What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?
Firstly, i would like to state that the grown-ups represent a much higher level of authority and wisdom/knowledge. It is common knowledge that children of tender age tend to look up to adults for approvals for various issues. To them, an adult's view is always correct and positive without questioning.
Hence, to people like Piggy who do not yet possess the ability to think for themselves and question an adult's viewpoint, their opinion are thus far important to him. Why is this so? In LOTR, and my point of view, Piggy is actually using "grown-ups"'s words as a guideline for his life as well as other people as he tries to gather support for "civilisation". For slightly older people like Jack, it is obvious that Jack has already been rejecting an adult's viewpoints and instead, creating his own set of life "guidelines" which mainly involves all his personal "wants".
However, to Piggy that reprensents actual civility, a "grown-up"'s point of view is definitely important to him as it presents to him the most "correct" way of doing things.
Hence, i conclude my point that Piggy is rather "adult-reliant". Additionally, pointed out by some people. The main irony is that while Piggy tries to conform the proper acts of civility. The "outside" world is acually killing each other and ending up in a mass "Annihliation", turning savage themselves.
Regards, James Quah 2C28
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Post by 2cleeyiren16 on Apr 21, 2008 10:47:28 GMT -5
Q1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy? The last part of the chapter 5 is quite an eye-opener to the maturity of each boy. During the assembly, Jack and the other boys left the meeting and became wild. However only the mature ones stayed behind. They are Ralph, Piggy and Simon. They are mature enough to understand there wasn't a beast. They should cooperate to be rescued. They each voice their opinion. Piggy was the most distinct. As children, most hoped there are no grown-up so they can enjoy freedom. Piggy did not appreciate such freedom as things became disorganised. He wished that there was a grown-up as he could handle things better such as understanding clearly what is going on, not afraid of the dark, having mature composed calm discussion that reaped results. They are not rash as to set the island on fire, do meaningful things to get things done, wouldn;t quarrel over minor petty issues, fight, being superstitious. Piggy listed what a grown-up can do. He prayed fervourly for a grown up as he knew everything will be right. A grown-up represents civilisation. If not for the other boys immaturity and fear for the beast, they would not join Jack tribe for protection.
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 22, 2008 4:28:38 GMT -5
Hi all,
i would like to comment on Yi Ren's post regarding Q1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?
"If not for the other boys immaturity and fear for the beast,"
In this phrase, how is immaturity linked to fear of the beast? Do clarify.
"They are mature enough to understand there wasn't a beast. They should cooperate to be rescued. They each voice their opinion. Piggy was the most distinct. As children, most hoped there are no grown-up so they can enjoy freedom. Piggy did not appreciate such freedom as things became disorganised. He wished that there was a grown-up...."
Here you are partially contradicting yourself. Piggy was mature enough to know and understand that there wasn't a beast (physically) but , you also stated that piggy wished that there was a grown-up around as "he could handle things better such as understanding clearly what is going on, not afraid of the dark, having mature composed calm discussion that reaped results. " Here you seem to be saying that Piggy is not mature enough to do likewise. Again, do clarify.
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 22, 2008 5:04:25 GMT -5
I would like to defend Yi ren's post. Piggy was mature enough as Yi ren has mentioned to know that the beast did not exist although many of the smaller boys believed in its existance. However, I do not feel that Yi ren is contradicting himself. He is merely stating that Piggy wished that there were adults to handle this case and this does not prove that Piggy believed in the existance of the beast. Please clarify this as soon as possible. Thank You
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 22, 2008 5:07:31 GMT -5
Hi all,
Alcander, the quote which i picked can be found in the last line.
thanks,
tian wen
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Post by 2cjiangshen14 on Apr 26, 2008 10:43:36 GMT -5
Hi,
I shall be answering Question 3 first.
3) In the book, the “beastie” serves as one of the most important symbols in the novel, representing both the terror and the allure of the primordial desires for violence, power, and savagery that lurk within every human soul. As Simon realizes later in the novel, the “beastie” is not necessarily something that exists outside in the jungle. Rather, it already exists inside each boy’s mind and soul, the capacity for savagery and evil that slowly overwhelms them. It can be justified by the fact that the boys now conceive of the “Beastie” as one that comes from water and not from the island itself. It is significant here as the vast boundary of water represents the fact that the “beastie” is now outside the island and seeps in to the boys’ mind to intensify savagery.
Regards, Jiang Shen
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Post by 2cjiangshen14 on Apr 26, 2008 10:58:37 GMT -5
Hi all,
Now, I shall answer Question 1.
1) Grown-ups here represent the instinct of civilization which is one two competing impulses that exist within all human beings: the instinct to live by rules, act peacefully, follow moral commands, and value the good of the group against the instinct to gratify one’s immediate desires, act violently to obtain supremacy over others, and enforce one’s will. The other is savagery. The reader finds that in this chapter, the fear of the beast finally explodes, ruining Ralph’s attempt to restore order to the island and precipitating the final split between Ralph and Jack. Piggy, however, is trying very hard to maintain the instinct of civilization by keep mentioning the word “grown-ups” which signifies the instinct of civilization, law and order. Hence, the “grown-ups” opinion is very important to Piggy as it is the only way to bring back the instinct (grown-ups will remind them about their life back in their society), especially to the little children whose fear of the beast becomes an increasingly important aspect of their lives.
Regards, Jiang Shen
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Post by 2chuyongda10 on Apr 26, 2008 20:54:20 GMT -5
1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?
I feel that "grown-ups" in this point of story represents order and solution to problems arisen. At this point, everyone is afriad of the beast and there is a general consent that the beast really exist. Thus, every boy was frightened to a certain extent and thereby causing disorder and problems to Ralph, their leader. Order is further destroyed by the fact that Jack is not cooperating with Ralph. He let the fire go out and get very absorbed in hunting. He also openly challenge Ralph's authority as the leader.
Due to all the events above, Piggy who was helping Ralph to establish order (which was in ruins now) wished that grown-ups were present as grown-ups have more experience and are more authoritive who could control the boys. Thus, the fact that grown-ups could have better handled the situation caused Piggy to wish that they were there to give their opinions.
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Post by 2cjiangshen14 on Apr 27, 2008 0:32:34 GMT -5
Hi,
I will be attempting on Question 2 for now.
2) Firstly, I would like to quote the meaning of improvise from Microsoft Encarta Dictionaries.
Here is improvise as defined by Microsoft Encarta.
Apparently, improvise here means that every path was an unforeseen circumstance. It all depends on how well you managed it or adapted to it. From what Ralph is thinking, we can imply that he has encountered so many setbacks on this island that he was now weary and lost in thoughts of how much life was an improvise.
Regards, Jiang Shen
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