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Post by 2cjiangshen14 on Apr 25, 2008 9:19:59 GMT -5
Hi,
I will be answering Question 1 for now.
1) From his outside appearance (painting the coloured clay to his face), Jack looks like the barbarians. As we know that Jack has been deeply envious of Ralph’s power from the moment Ralph was elected, the two do not come into open conflict until this chapter, when Jack’s irresponsibility leads to the failure of the signal fire. In this chapter, Jack’s bloodlust and instinct of savagery intensifies. This is shown earlier in the book that Jack claims his hunting was for the sake for the group as “we needed meat”. However, now Jack becomes more savagery and he finds that there is not a need to justify his behavior at all. Jack only gave a so-called apologise to Ralph when Ralph seems ready to fight him over it. Furthermore, Jack begins to hit Piggy openly just because Piggy opposed Jack and Jack doesn’t like his face. Later on, Jack bullied Piggy again by not giving him meat to eat by the so-called reason of “You didn’t hunt”. When Piggy tried to justify and Simon gave him his share of the pig meat out of sympathy, Jack slashed off a great hunk of meat”, flung it to Simon and ordered him to eat, as though Simon has done a very wrong thing for giving Piggy his shares.
Regards, Jiang Shen
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 25, 2008 19:20:17 GMT -5
Tian Wen, may I know which Simon you are referring to as the littlun in which you have stated? However, I agree with your point that these littluns played a vital role in developing the story -- Simon's connection with nature and death, even the boys' amount of civilization left in them were potrayed through them as can be seen when percival forgotten his name when they were being rescued. This shows that at the end of the story, they were completely led astray from civilization to the extent that they forgot their own names. Thank You
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 25, 2008 23:48:59 GMT -5
Hi all,
Simon is a littlun, though much older and much more mature than compared to the others. Also, he has a close connection with nature, and is kind and gentle.
I'm refering to this Simon.
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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Post by 2cjiangshen14 on Apr 26, 2008 8:45:05 GMT -5
Hi,
Now I will answer Question 2.
The older boys call the small boys “littluns”, which is in contrast with what they called themselves as “biguns”. Littluns here gives the reader an impression of being little, less powerful whereas biguns means power and being older. The fact that they basically remain nameless conveys two purposes. One is that there are too many little children to call their name one by one. The other is that it gives the reader an ignorance of the little children which is not very important in the story, it directs the readers’ attention to the “biguns” which were the book’s major characters.
Regards, Jiang Shen
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Post by 2b26tayhanyang on Apr 29, 2008 11:58:03 GMT -5
Hi all, will be trying question 1 first.
1) Why do you think Jack's personality changes when he applies the coloured clay to his face?
This coloured face is a mask, to hide Jack's humane and civilised side of him. His face looked as though as it had been disfigured, as if he was trying to avoid that civilised and normal schoolboy he was. By clouring his face, he looked like a demon and as stated in the book, looked compelling to the other boys. This mask symoblises the first hint of the descent of Jack from a normal boy to a savageand again stated in one part of the book, it said that this mask was used to hide the shame of Jack, probably referring to the fact that Jack was not elected to become chief.
I am still trying to find the exact page and quotation still, I forgot which page it was XD.
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Post by 2b26tayhanyang on Apr 29, 2008 12:16:26 GMT -5
Now for question 2! 2) The older boys call the small boys "littluns". What is the function of this label? What does the fact that they basically remain nameless convey about their purpose in the story?
These small boys at certain points of the stories have the same set of thinking or actions.Like they did their business near the bathing poolafter they ate the fruits on the island, or conceptualising this "beast", being very immature and excited at first when they were asked to make a fire or build shelters. It will be easier to identify them as "littluns", since none of them had particularly significant actions, with the exception of Simon. Also, this group of "littluns" were not as important as the other characters, like Jack, Ralph and Piggy and thus no name were mention except for a few cases like Percival crying as his eye was filled with sand. However, what they did at certain points were significant to the development of the story. Golding was probably trying to show how seemingly insignificant people could be impactful at points of time.
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 30, 2008 3:20:07 GMT -5
Hi all,
I would like to elaborate on what Ms Ngo said regarding the use of bold colours as face paint.
Red is indeed a bold colour, and is one that is associated with many demons, such as:
1.Abaddon ( in demonology, was chief of the demons of the seventh hierarchy) 2.Satan
Also, Red symbolises:
1. Courage (take the Soviet Union's Red Army's patriotism to the Motherland for example) 2.Warning (Evident from "stop" signs, notices etc. 3.Sins 4.Guilt and Passion 5. Anger
A biblical example for (3)is found in Isaiah: "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow." Also, The Scarlet Letter an 1850 American novel by Nathaniel Hawthorne, features a woman in a Puritan New England community who is punished for adultery with ostracism, her sin represented by a red letter 'A' sewn into her clothes. This all comes from a general Hebrew view inherited by Christianity which associates red with the blood of murder, as well as with guilt in general. Another popular example of this is in the phrase "caught red-handed", meaning either caught in an act of crime or caught with the blood of murder still on one's hands.
Do post any comments.
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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Post by 2c06wengsiang on Apr 30, 2008 8:07:40 GMT -5
Hi i'm here to answer question 2
2)The older boys call the small boys "littluns". What is the function of this label? What does the fact that they basically remain nameless convey about their purpose in the story?
I beleive that the small boys are called the littleuns as they play no important part in the story and it would also have been too troublesome to name each and everyone of the small boys as there are many boys on the island. Furthermore, in chapter two of the book,Piggy states that they do not know the exact number of the "littleuns" on the island when he said "Them kids. The littleuns. Who took any notice of 'em? Who knows how many we got?" Golding might have generalized the small kids as littleuns to show the chaos and confusion created by the boys as they scatter everywhere as can be seen from what Piggy said "How could I, all by myself!They waited for two minutes, then they fell in the sea; they went into the forest, they scattered everywhere. How was i to know which was which?" This shows that the boys were very disorganized, and Golding might have Generalized them as littleuns to create this view.
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Post by 2cjaredkoh13 on Apr 30, 2008 9:42:13 GMT -5
1) Why do you think Jack's personality changes when he applies the coloured clay to his face?
The clay has bold colours such as red, white and black which are somewhat demonic
The re covers more than half his face which suggests his bloodlust.
The black bar of charcoal separates his face, from his eye to his opposite jaw. This may seem to be like the physical divide between human and savagery.
2) The older boys call the small boys "littluns". What is the function of this label? What does the fact that they basically remain nameless convey about their purpose in the story?
This may mean that the younger children all have about the same characteristics, and thus they so-called 'behave as one'
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Post by 2cjaredkoh13 on Apr 30, 2008 9:42:23 GMT -5
1) Why do you think Jack's personality changes when he applies the coloured clay to his face?
The clay has bold colours such as red, white and black which are somewhat demonic
The re covers more than half his face which suggests his bloodlust.
The black bar of charcoal separates his face, from his eye to his opposite jaw. This may seem to be like the physical divide between human and savagery.
2) The older boys call the small boys "littluns". What is the function of this label? What does the fact that they basically remain nameless convey about their purpose in the story?
This may mean that the younger children all have about the same characteristics, and thus they so-called 'behave as one'.
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Post by 2b27pangshiang on Apr 30, 2008 11:03:19 GMT -5
1) Why do you think Jack's personality changes when he applies the coloured clay to his face?
Jack feels powerful and dominating when he applies clay to his face and others also fear his "mask" when he puts it on.
Jack's mask is looks demonic and inhuman and thus grants him a psychological boost and hence he gets a new personality.
Also, people fear his demonic "mask" and thus Jack again feels strong at this and his personality is warped
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on May 1, 2008 3:25:16 GMT -5
However, I agree that the littleuns are weak mentally and physically. This can be shown in the text, in which the littleuns cried when talking about the beast and their home and their family etc. This strongly highlights that the littleuns have seriously no self-control. Hence, they are weak mentally. Even though they have boundless of energy running about, the littleuns only channeled that energy into playing, making sandcastles and enjoying themselves. They did not make any significant contribution to camp well-being at all. Thus, they can be seen as physically weak, by lying and lazing. However, I disagree with Alcander's point about the littleuns swaying from one side to another is for the sake of their own benefits and safety. I think that the main reason why the littleuns sway from side to side because they are innocent, they are immature. They do not understand what's going on. They're only 6 or 7. They obviously do not know the political system on the island. Most probably they listen to the more dominant speaker, which is Jack. That is why they sway side to side. Furthermore, they play and giggle during the assembly. This shows that they're not concentrating at all. Thank you. Regards, Wen Kang. Wen Kang,Perhaps I may have used the wrong word in describing why the littuns sway from side to side. What I am trying to say from my earlier post is that the reason the littuns sway from side to side because of their own protection from the beast. Why do I say this? Quoted from the passage"Am I a hunter or am I not?" "If there is a beast, we will catch it", said by Jack. This gave the littuns reassurance that Jack could offer them a protection that Ralph did not possess. Furthermore, Jack was a hunter and that made the littluns trust him more as Ralph did not spend his time hunting like Jack. All in all, I can conclude by saying that the littluns on the isalnd swayed from side to side because of their own protection that Jack could offer them which was lacking in Ralph. Thank You
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Post by marcus on May 1, 2008 4:37:25 GMT -5
Hi all, i will try to reply both questions.
1) Why do you think Jack's personality changes when he applies the coloured clay to his face?
Firstly, the book states "he looked in astonishment, no longer at himself but at an awesome stranger." This shows that jack was completely changed when he wore the mask. Why? The mask hides his true self.It both amazed and frightened the littleuns, making them both respect and yet fear him.Then, the mask controlled him, not vice versa..it became a thing on its own.
"He capered towards bill, and the mask was a thing on its own, behind which jack hid,liberated from shame and self- consciousness. This means that, jack, whose face was hidden behind the mask, became bolder and more savage because no one could see his emotions. the mask reminded him of his sole task- to kill a pig, which was not civilised but very savage. The mask was really a mask- he could do whatever he liked, be as savage and rough as he wanted, but yet behind the mask nobody was able to stop him- the mask brought out his savagery
2)why do they call the small boys 'littleuns'?
i disagree with james on this point ( i dont know if you changed it). the term 'littleuns' does not mean that the older boys disregard the littleuns opinions. in fact, they are crucial to the story. Like many others have pointed out, they are like innocent civilians, hearing both sides of the story ( jack vs ralph). they determine the right and the wrong- they follow who they chose. in the end, they chose to go with jack, and jack, with the rest on his side, turns against ralph. if jack had been isolated and ignored by the others , he would not have been so daring. however, the littleuns only cared about fun, probably because they were young. yet, the sensible ones, like samneric, were forced to join jack.So, the littleuns played a very important role in the story because, their choices totally changed what might have been the outcome of the story.
Feel free to comment cheers, marcus goh
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on May 1, 2008 4:55:46 GMT -5
Hi all,
I would like to disagree with Alcander's view of why the littluns sway from side to side, and on the other hand, i would like to agree with Wen Kang regarding his view of why the littluns sway from side to side.
Alcander said that the littuns sway from side to side because of their own protection from the beast.
Yes, i agree that the littluns do sway from side to side, but i believed that the main reason why they do so is because they are innocent, they are immature. They do not understand what's going on. They're only 6 or 7. They obviously do not know the political system on the island. Most probably they listen to the more dominant speaker, which is Jack. That is why they sway side to side. Furthermore, they play and giggle during the assembly. This shows that they're not concentrating at all.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^And that is what Wen Kang said ^^^^^^^^
Hence, i would like to disagree with Alcander's view. The main reason why the littluns sway from side to side is not that they are protecting themselves from the beast , which is what Alcander stated. Instead, i agree with Wen Kang's view. They are so young and immature. Hence, how will they be able to consider who to follow so that they will be protected from the beast? Being so young and immature, how will they be able to think that so-and-so will protect them against the beast? They are not mature enough to think carefully who to follow and not mature enough to consider who will be the one who is capable of protecting them against the beast.
Hence, i agree with Wen Kang that the main reason why the littluns sway from side to side is that they listen to the more dominant speaker and hence follow him.
All in all, I feel that Alcander's view on why the littluns sway from side to side is not the main reason of why the littluns do so.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on May 1, 2008 5:05:53 GMT -5
Hi all, Hence, i would like to disagree with Alcander's view. The main reason why the littluns sway from side to side is not that they are protecting themselves from the beast , which is what Alcander stated. Instead, i agree with Wen Kang's view. They are so young and immature. Hence, how will they be able to consider who to follow so that they will be protected from the beast? Being so young and immature, how will they be able to think that so-and-so will protect them against the beast? They are not mature enough to think carefully who to follow and not mature enough to consider who will be the one who is capable of protecting them against the beast. Hence, i agree with Wen Kang that the main reason why the littluns sway from side to side is that they listen to the more dominant speaker and hence follow him. All in all, I feel that Alcander's view on why the littluns sway from side to side is not the main reason of why the littluns do so. Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29 Terrre, I agree with your view that the littuns are immature. However, you will also have to acknowledge the view that it was the littuns whom started the rumors of the beast and thus, the ones who were most fearful towards the beast should be the littuns as the other boys did not believe from the existance of the beast and was thus doubtful. The littuns, however tactily accepted the beast's presence as they claimed to have seen it. As they were immature, they thus believed in a physical magnefestation of the beast and grabbed hold of the opportunity to switch sides to Jack for the sake of their own safety. Thank You ;D
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