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Post by 2chanhao09 on Apr 13, 2008 1:30:47 GMT -5
Question 3)
I feel that until the stage of the novel, there is a slight conflict between ralph and jack. Jack wanted to be the leader as he claimed that he could play the csharp. However, ralph was voted as the leader and made Jack a bit jealous. Later on, when they went to explore, Jack did not killed the pig and ralph blamed him because pig was one of the source of food for them
HanHao
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Post by 2Cyangyi32 on Apr 13, 2008 5:08:42 GMT -5
Hey All,
I'll be doing an analysis for Question 3.
3. Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer.
At this stage of the novel, the boys are still new to the island and hardly know anything about this strange land they've come to. I believe that at that stage their most important goal is survival in the unknown, and of course rescue. This in itself provokes aggression if a member of a group disagrees with another member.
At the start of the novel, Jack nominates himself as leader as "I can sing C-sharp." This, however irrelevant or unreasonable it may be, to the boys, it is a legitimate bid for leadership. Ralph beats him as he possesses the conch, and it is possible that Jack may bear a grudge.
When the boys have rushed up the mountain, following Jack, Piggy is left with Ralph, and remarks scornfully that the rest of the boys were "kids". Ralph does not seem to blame Jack at all.
On the mountain itself, the boys try to gather wood for the fire, Jack and Ralph grin at each other and share the burden of a limb of a tree. This shows that there is cooperation, and friendship between the two boys, dissipating doubts that there is any conflict. There is a strong bond between the two at this point of time.
Also, when Ralph states that they have to have rules, and then someone has to maintain the fire and keep it going at all times of the day, Jack agrees and immediately offers to split up his hunters to keep the fire going. The boys all clap at Jack's act of generosity, which contributes to the point that Jack does not have any grudge towards Ralph at this juncture.
Lastly, when Piggy is criticising the immature and rash acts of the boys, and their disorganisation, Jack gangs up on him with Ralph, supporting him with strong statements, like telling Piggy to shut up. This in itself is sufficient to express that Jack, far from having any point of conflict with Ralph, is actually fully cooperating and bonding with Ralph.
Cheers. Yang Yi
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Post by 2cjiangshen14 on Apr 13, 2008 8:51:42 GMT -5
Hi,
Here are my answers for question 1.
1) In my opinion, I think that children are more prone to nightmares. Here they spent the night not together but are alone. Just imagine you are stranded on an island, darkness was everywhere and with the deafening silence. Suddenly, something out of nowhere moved! That would probably be a bone chilling experience. So if even you are scared, what about the little children? They will be frightened to death! Here’s another factor that led to the small boy’s conclusion that he had seen a “beastie” - younger children tend to be more imaginative, especially when they are alone without their parents. And they will mostly imagine about monsters whenever they feel unsafe.
Regards, Jiang Shen
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Post by 2CHuangyibin11 on Apr 15, 2008 3:08:07 GMT -5
Hi again everyone. This time I’m going to discuss about the 2nd chapter. This part is actually the starting development of the plot.
2) Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense?
And obviously they do. Rules are made for a reason. Rules are to achieve a goal in mind, and that for this matter, is being able to maintain harmony and not quarrels during the assemblies. Ralph, on the first few assemblies, have realised that everyone is behaving like a chaotic class with everyone talking and interrupting each other—you must have discipline or else nothing will work out well. Thus rules like the privilege to talk when you have the conch was one important first steps to achieving discipline. Having proper discipline was important in surviving on the deserted island and due credit must be given to Ralph for thinking up these rules.
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Post by 2b26tayhanyang on Apr 15, 2008 10:41:31 GMT -5
I shall be trying my take on question one. 1) Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind?
First thing, these boys were now in a totally unfamiliar island, where they did not know why lies behind those bushes and mountains. They were probably exposed a lot to fictional monsters and ghosts in cartoons and books, and probably have a vivid idea of how scary a beast is. In the night, the littluns were probably scared of the unknown out there as they could not see anything. At the thought of being alone, a kind of senseless fear takes over them as they start to imagine too much things. Is there a snake out there? Or is there...a giant bird which will take everybody up? Is there a big and terrifying monster? This would be a probable state of mind of a littlun one. Being in a totally unknown island, these children starts to imagine a monster, a monster to replace their senseless and empty fear. The island was just an addition factor to their factor, as they are all placed alone in this strange place without their parents and precious soft toys.
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Post by 2b26tayhanyang on Apr 15, 2008 10:48:45 GMT -5
2) Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense?
It makes sense. First rule, only the person with the conch can talk. Second, there must always be a person to tend the fire. Third rule, do your business behind the bathing pools. All of these make sense, all of these were needed to make sure that their goals would be achieved and that there would be no chaos and disputes. All of these rules were measures to control the group of boys., but were they followed? No. Jack interrupted Ralph in the assembly, everybody ran off with Jack when they mentioned about making a fire, leaving Piggy and Ralph behind. Jack and his hunters went to hunt and forgot about the fire, and let off a chance for them to be rescued, which enraged Ralph. Third, the littluns, after eating the weird fruits, had diarrhoea and began to do their business in front of the bathing pools. All of the rules created were broken, but nothing was done to resolve that. There was nobody to enforce the rules and punish those who broke that. Being just a child after all, Ralph could not control the groupof boys and make sure that the boys listen to him. Yes, the rules make sense. But they do not work. They are just there to be defied and broken. This probably sort of reflects the society, or say, our school in itself...
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Post by 2b26tayhanyang on Apr 15, 2008 10:52:36 GMT -5
With regards to question 3, Yang Yi did a good job on stating down the evidence of signs of conflicts. But he might want to add on how this relationship between them worsens each time they have a dispute...as you can see Ralph letting Jack to lead his own group of hunters when Jack was not elected leader to Jack enraging Ralph by letting the fire go off when a ship was there as Jack went off hunting with his band of hunters. They had quite a heated argument for that particular incident. Their relationship then strained and you could see that Jack starts to detest Ralph. That is all I believe. Good job for those who listed the evidence down.
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Post by 2cleeyiren16 on Apr 17, 2008 11:06:18 GMT -5
Chapter 2: Fire on the Mountain
1) Why do you think children imagine monsters? Why do you think the island triggered the fear of a 'Beastie' in the small boy's mind? Young children had a sense of insecurity without his parents. He could have a nightmare. The beast is an important symbol. From the start, it is just a idea that frightens some of the boys. Later, they accept its existence and the problem starts. The fact that the boys were alone in the island means that they were isolated from adults and civilisation. The fear of the existence of the beast originated from the fear that they would be stranded on the island and thought would be in danger as some unknown creature lived in this undiscovered island. They developed instincts of savagery that lurk within each human being.
2) Do the rules that Ralph introduces in the assembly make sense? It makes sense. summary: on an island no adults organises few things look after ourselves hunters jobs allocation have the right to speack with conch there is'nt a beast my father will save us mak a fire to get rescue
To maintain law and order. To try his best to recreate an organised civilised society like before. To comfort the littlums that they will go home and there isn't a beast. To get cooperation and be rescue.
3) Are there any hints of a possible conflict yet between Ralph and Jack at this stage of the novel? Give evidence to support your answer. There was a slight disagreement in point of view. As a leader, Ralph was serious and was gave a definite answer that there isn;t any beastie. He opposed Jack casual remark(if there is, we will hunt). He was clear when not to joke. He was not happy or amused at Jack's remark to hunt it. Finally he emphasized loudly that the beast does not exist. He did not want to confuse the littlum. His point is that the littlums were clear and not afraid and misled. Thus his tone may be harsh to Jack.
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 18, 2008 4:30:43 GMT -5
I think that Han Yang's reason that the boys were probably exposed a lot to fictional monsters and ghosts in cartoons and books, and probably have a vivid idea of how scary a beast is valid however to a certain extent. You might want to consider that this book was written in the year 1954 and I believe that at that time, cartoons were not very common as a person having a television set was already very hard to come by. As I have mentioned in my earlier post, I think that the children on the island imagine monsters because of hallucinations they had after hearing a boy bringing it up during a meeting. Also, With this new environment, they are not able to adapt into it totally and furthermore, at this this stage of the novel, there were still places in which the boys have not explored yet and might have also played a role in triggering the boys' imagination of the beast. That is al I have to say. Thank You
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 19, 2008 4:11:41 GMT -5
I agree with Alcander about the fact that the book was written in the year 1954 and cartoons were not very common as a person having a television set was already very hard to come by. However I would like to disagree with Alcander that there ARE books with horror stories/adventure stories/fantasy stories which have monsters or beasts or anything scary in them. Hence, I kind of agree with HanYang but I disagree with his point about television but not books. Thank you Regards, Wen Kang.
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 19, 2008 4:21:06 GMT -5
Hi all,
I totally agree with Wen kang and Alcander, to a ceratin extent.
The fact that the book was written in the year 1954 and cartoons were not very common as a person having a television set was already very hard to come by. Here i agree with you, but however, one has to see in what context does this apply to. In the 1960s, a family in America would have ben able to afford a television, so would a family in Britain( in the context of middile and upper-class families, of course).
Do post any comments.
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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Post by 2cjiangshen14 on Apr 19, 2008 6:51:51 GMT -5
Hi,
Here are my answers for Question 2. Feel free to comment.
2) Rules are set for a reason. And in here the reason here is that Ralph did not want to have “everybody talking at once.”(Page 43) And so here he set up something like a “‘Hands up’ like at school.”(Page 43) Here the word school is very important. We know that back in there society the children are studying in school and thus the school rules are very familiar to them. Hence, Ralph declared that the conch shell would be used to determine which boy has the right to speak. This is very much like the ‘hands up’ back in their school. Since the children’s instinct of civilization is still very strong due to the fact that they are only stranded on the island for a few days. Hence, they sensed that the rules are as same as what they are back in their school, and definitely the rule makes sense to them, so they obeyed. This also strengthened the children’s respect for Ralph as he is able to lead the children.
Regards, Jiang Shen
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Post by 2cjiangshen14 on Apr 19, 2008 7:19:16 GMT -5
Hi,
Here are my answers for Question 3.
3) Till now, the conflict between the instincts of civilization (Ralph) and savagery (Jack) became more and more intense. The earliest conflict is when Jack said “I ought to be chief” with “simple arrogance” (Page 29). However, Ralph is elected as the leader when everyone voted him. But the conflict between them grew more intensely when Jack’s “eyes that looked so intently at” Ralph were “without humor”. (Page 48). However, I still consider these conflicts as a small extent compared to later in the novel where Jack became the chief and led his hunters to hunt Ralph like animals.
Regards, Jiang Shen
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 19, 2008 7:51:18 GMT -5
Hi all,
i agree with Alcander that cartoons were not very common as a person having a television set was already very hard to come by.
However, i agree with Wen Kang that there ARE books with horror stories/adventure stories/fantasy stories which have monsters or beasts or anything scary in them.
Hence, i agree about Alcander's point to a certain extent.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 19, 2008 7:56:53 GMT -5
Thank You Terre and Wen Kang for pointing out that there ARE books with horror stories/adventure stories/fantasy stories which have monsters or beasts or anything scary in them.
However, if you had read my message more carefully, you would have realised that I mentioned that I had aggreed with Han Yang's view to a certain extent.. Perhaps I have not made it clear enough but thank you all the same for pointing that out all the same.
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