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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 17, 2008 23:33:19 GMT -5
Piggy's glasses represent the power of science and wisdom in society. Piggy is the most intelligent, rational boy in the group. He discovered the conch, build a fire with specs, made a namelist, suggested to have sundial,etc
I would like to comment in yi ren's post regarding ms ngo's 4th question : What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles?
Yi ren, perhaps you could have placed more emphasis on how the spectacles symbolised the power of science and wisdom in society.
In my point of view, piggy's specs not only represent what you have stated, but also the key to the boy's rescue, the link , the one and only link to civilisation.
Perhaps you could also have chosen to emphasize more on this rather than other insignificant examples you have stated.
Tian Wen
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 18, 2008 2:53:59 GMT -5
Hey all,
I agree with what Tian Wen has mentioned about Yi Ren's post.
Yi Ren, i personally agree with Tian Wen that you could have elaborate more on how the spectacles symbolised the power of science and wisdom in the society, instead of telling us the characteristics of Piggy.
For example, you stated that Piggy is the most intelligent person on the island. In my opinion, you could have left out the comment about Piggy's characteristics since everyone knows that Piggy is very clever.
All in all, i just want to say that Yi Ren, you should have elaborated more on your point about how the spectacles symbolised the power of science and wisdom in the society. Hence, in my opinion, your answer of question 4 could have been much better if you have elaborated more on your point about how the spectacles symbolised the power of science and wisdom in the society.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2bmarcel16 on Apr 18, 2008 3:05:49 GMT -5
Hi, I'm here to post my view on questions 2 and 3. Why did Jack not kill the pig? I think that Jack did not kill the pig as he was scared of the blood and the consequences of such an action.( i do not have the book with me, so no quote).Contrast this with Jack in the later parts of the book,where he seemed to thrive on the blood of a killing. Before Jack descended into savagery, he was just an ordinary boy in the choir, and Head Boy to boot. On paper, this would mean that he is the most obedient and civilized of the lot of boys. This might be true at the start of the book. I would say that his inclination to be leader is more because he is often in control of affairs as Head Boy, rather than actually having any mean intent. He is in a way, as constricted by the rules of civilization as Roger was, when he aimed to miss.After living in an adult presence of 12 years, he is bound to still be constricted by the rules set. I mean, in a civilized world, one hardly ever sees an adult killing animals in cold blood. Yet, we can see that he was rather tortured with the ropes of civilization that held his hand at that precise moment before he let the pig go. This might have led to him becoming savage in the later parts of the book, as he felt he had lost respect by not killing the pig.
3)What is the significance of the conch?
In a place where adult presence is zero, the conch was the most important thing to the boys at the start and middle parts of the story.It is akin to the dinner bell,the call of a parent, the honk of a car to hurry one's movements...I could go on for hours. It is the only item on the island that represented civilization. And it is that that gave the conch such power. The boys yearned so much for an adult for guidance that the power of the conch as a 'civil' object was increased tenfold.It immediately elevated Ralph's status to that of an 'adult'. Now skim through the book. Do you see any other object besides the spectacles that offer a glimpse of what was their life before landing on the island?No.(At least I dint think so)And the spectacles, as we know, was, although an object of great usefulness,not on the same level as that of the conch. Why is that? The owners differ. Would you listen to a tall silent and composed boy who somehow capably salvaged a civil object or a fat boy with spectacles and "ass-mar"?Hence, the significance of the conch is that it was the only thing that the boys respected as an adult.Even Jack respected it, despite the scorn that he frequently showed.He realized and recognized the power of the conch, and sought to erase it from the boy's minds the first thing once he became chief.
Have a nice day.LOL
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 18, 2008 3:33:44 GMT -5
Hey all,
I wil be commenting on Marcel's post abput the significance of the conch.
Marcel, in your comment about the significance of the conch, you stated that the conch signifies civilisation and adult guidance.
It's true that the conch signifies civilisation and adult guidance, but in my opinion, the main significance of the conch is authority and law and order.
Perhaps, you could have talked about authority and law and order as the significance of the conch? Because The main thing that the conch signifies is authority and law and order( at least this is what i think).
All in all, what i have been trying to say is that Marcel, it will make your post much better if you have included authority and law and order as the significances of the conch.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 18, 2008 3:46:36 GMT -5
On reference to Terre's post, you mentioned that Marcel did not include the point of law and order of the conch. I will then help him to elaborate on these points as you have not done so. Well, I feel that the conch symbolizes authority and order beacause the conch has the power to call for an assembly and the authority to let no one except Ralph to interrupt when the person holding the conch is talking. However, I feel that this is true to only a certain extent as whenever Piggy had the conch, no one really cared much about his suggestions even if they were valid. They just treated him as a weakling as he was fat. Thus, I believe that the conch symbolises power to only a certain extent as I feel that charisma is also another essential factor to make others respect you just like Jack and Ralph. Thank You
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Post by 2bjosephlim10 on Apr 18, 2008 5:41:35 GMT -5
Ok now on to Q1... (I answered Q2, 3 and 4 in my previous post.)
1.) What is social order? How does it come about on the island?
Social order refers to a set of linked social structures, social institutions and social practices which conserve, maintain and enforce "normal" ways of relating and behaving. (Sry couldn't find anything better"
"Social order." Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. 3 Mar 2008, 23:13 UTC. Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. 18 Apr 2008 <http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Social_order&oldid=195670932>.
It came about when Ralph found the conch and became leader. He then set the rules, which integrated into the lives of the other boys. It sort of became "the order of things". What to do, when to do, how to do, all these all followed the rules Ralph made. Thus, becoming the social order on the island.
(Correct me if I have mistaken social order with something else. Thx.)
Regards Joseph
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 19, 2008 4:08:06 GMT -5
I agree with Alcander that the conch symbolises power but charisma is also among of the many factors that play a part. However, I disagree that the conch symbolises power to a certain extent, because I think that the conch symbolises power completely. This is evident from the text where when Ralph/Jack was interrupted, they would say something like "I've got the conch!" or something like that. After that the person who interrupted would keep quiet. I think that the conch symbolises power. However, I agree that charisma plays a factor too. Whether you're a good social player also determines whether people like you or not like you, which then determines whether they want to listen to you or not. Hence, I agree with Alcander but I think that the conch holding law and authority should not be a subset of charisma, but they both should be two different but factors of their own which hold equal importance. Thank you Regards, Wen Kang
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 19, 2008 4:15:08 GMT -5
Hi all,
i disagree with Wen Kang's comment on alcander's post.
The conch DOES signify power to a certain extent. This is evident from the rules that Ralph HIMSELF laid down. Only he is allowed to interrupt the person currently in possession of the conch. Besides , Jack and his tribe of savages treated the conch with blatant disregard. Even at the beginning, Jack also feels irritated and annoyed with the rule that staes no one is allowedto interrupt the person currently in possession of the conch, so much so that he once openly claimed that the rules were nothing to him.
Also, in the later part of the book, the boys did not steal the conch, but instead stole away Piggy's spectacles and the branches to make a cooking fire. This serves as proof that the conch was no symbol of power, but rather something like a puppet that serves as a "phoney" tool of power.
Do post any comments
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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Post by 2afanyi10 on Apr 19, 2008 5:30:50 GMT -5
1) Social order is to maintain a level of order which is what is supposedly the "normal" way people live with laws. Social order came about on the islands with rules implemented by Ralph. For example, the boys had to raise up their hands before asking a question during the meeting, and only the person holding the conch could talk during the meeting, so that everyone could hear what he was trying to say.
2) Jack was unable to kill the pig as he was still the innocent Jack when he reached the island. This was due to the fact that he was assigned with many leadership roles before he was on the island, thus he was very disciplined and seldom kill things. Also, before he arrived on the island his family was probably economically stable, thus he did not need to hunt for his food. Furthermore, he was the head for the choirboys, who were from the church, hence he was taught not to harm an innocent being.
3) The significance of the conch was authority. This was evident as only the person holding the conch could speak during a meeting. Also, authority meant that many people could hear one person's view. The conch was the symbol of authority as it could do what people with authority could do: produce a sound (view) in which other people would hear and follow, since it managed to "summon" all the other boys on the island to Ralph.
4) Piggy's spectacles signified intelligence and science. First from the fact that Piggy was the most intelligent boy among the boys, thus what he wore wich was different from the others, the spectacles, became the symbol of intlligence. Also, the boys used Piggy's spectacles to light a fire. As it was the item that stood out among all the things on the island without technology, tgus it represented science as well. Furthermore, from the fact that lighting a fire using sepctacles was Physics, it also suggested that his spectacles signified science.
Openus, Fan Yi
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 19, 2008 9:11:13 GMT -5
Tianwen, let me clarify. Jack, even though he disliked the rule, he still obeyed it (at least at the start). He closed his mouth when Ralph reminded him to do so. Tianwen, I am agreeing that the conch is a symbol of authority. When the boys are later separated into two tribes, the authority of the conch gets broken, yes I agree with that. However, after that Jack get complete control over everything and everyone. Due to the fact that Jack disliked the conch, he did not steal it to get attention. More importantly, if you were in total control, would you go out in your way to try to snatch a thing that was once useful (as a power item) but is irrelevant to you now? No right? Of course, the conch has been disused as a useless thing in the later part of the story, but it cannot be said as a phoney item because it DID help to control everyone at the start. I am not saying that it did control everyone from start to end, but it DID exert some kind of control at the start and this should be considered as a real symbol of authority before Jack overpowered it. Thank you Wen Kang
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 19, 2008 22:18:07 GMT -5
Hi all,
Wen Kang, you are contradicting yourself in the previous post. You say that the conch was NOT a phoney symbol of authority since it DID help to control everyone at the start, but yet was a real symbol of authority before Jack overpowered it.Do clarify on this.
Yes , you are right to a certain extent the conch was indeed a symbol of authority before Jack overpowered it, but Jack did not not like the conch, but disliked the RULES Ralph laid down concerning the conch and the authority that the person currently in possession of the conch had. He "liked it physically" but not holistically.
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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Post by 2bwenkang04 on Apr 19, 2008 22:35:18 GMT -5
Wen Kang, you are contradicting yourself in the previous post. You say that the conch was NOT a phoney symbol of authority since it DID help to control everyone at the start, but yet was a real symbol of authority before Jack overpowered it.Do clarify on this.
Yes , you are right to a certain extent the conch was indeed a symbol of authority before Jack overpowered it, but Jack did not not like the conch, but disliked the RULES Ralph laid down concerning the conch and the authority that the person currently in possession of the conch had. He "liked it physically" but not holistically
Hi Tianwen, I am not contradicting myself. I am simply saying that the conch IS a symbol of authority. HOWEVER, there was the UNFORSEEN CIRCUMSTANCE in which Jack gained total control over everything. HENCE it is wrong to say that the conch was not a symbol of authority and it's wrong to say that the conch was a phoney symbol of authority. The conch is simply a symbol of authority UNTIL Jack's uprising. Lets say that Singapore is a law-abiding society. It is actually. Then suddenly terrorists come into the picture. So now you're trying to say that the law and government before are phoney symbols of authority? I don't think so, because the terrorists are the UNFORSEEN CIRCUMSTANCE. Yes I agree with you that Jack did not not like the conch, but disliked the rules Ralph laid down concerning the conch and the authority that the person currently in possession of the conch had. However, the rules are applied in the conch. So they're both the same and can be used interchangebly. Thank you Wen Kang
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Post by 2bgweeyongxiang7 on Apr 20, 2008 7:49:35 GMT -5
Hi all,
I'm here to post my analysis on question 2.
2) Why did Jack not kill the pig?
Firstly, at this point of time Jack was still civilised. Having grown up in a world for so many years and having been constricted by the rules of civilisation and society like what marcel had mentioned, Jack would not be able to bring himself to kill the pig even if he had the courage to do so. Also, having grown up in a civilised society, he would not have seen any grown-up kill a live pig before and thus he was scared. This is evident from how his face was "white under the freckles". We can also tell that he has never killed any living things before from how the book says that Jack didn't cut the injured pig's throat because of the "enormity of the knife descending and cutiing into living flesh;because of the unbearable blood". These evidence thus show us why Jack didn't kill the pig.
One point to note is that, one of the reasons Jack turned savage was to prove to others that he had the courage to kill. From the last two paragraphs, we can clearly see that Jack was trying to rebut Ralph and Simon and giving excuses why he didn't kill the pig and hence he turns furious and says next time he won't be merciful. This thus shows that Jack might not have turned savage in the later parts of the book but because he wanted to prove Ralph and Simon wrong, he started to kill pigs.
I'll focus on the other questions in my future posts. If anyone has any comments fell free to post and I'll reply
Regards, Yong Xiang 2B07
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 20, 2008 9:03:35 GMT -5
Hi all,
Yes, yong xiang, you are correct, to a certain extent.
"This thus shows that Jack might not have turned savage in the later parts of the book but because he wanted to prove Ralph and Simon wrong, he started to kill pigs."
To prove Ralph and Simon wrong might not be a major factor in Jack's transformation from civilised schoolboy to chief of savages, but instead you could have considered the sight of blood and the process of killing a pig a major factor.
As you have already pointed out, Killing requires a lot of courage, beyond what a person chained by the dreadlocks of humanity and civilisation could ever muster. Thus, in succeeding in killing a pig, this results in the breaking free of such locks that watch over our attitude, behavior and actions, or even our moral values, and thus lead to Jack's descend into savagery.
The sight of blood makes even the bravest man falter. With such reality, having successfully "survived" an "ordeal" of seeing blood is a symbol of courage beyond what we can muster, and similarly, lead to savagery one way or another.
Do post any comments.
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 20, 2008 9:11:08 GMT -5
Hi all,
Yes, yong xiang, you are correct on your point: "This thus shows that Jack might not have turned savage in the later parts of the book but because he wanted to prove Ralph and Simon wrong, he started to kill pigs."
However, i kind of agree with Tian Wen that you could consider the sight of blood and the process of killing a pig as the major reasons why Jack did not kill the pig.
In fact, i personally feel that the sight of blood and the process of killing a pig are more important reasons of why jack did not kill the pig.
Perhaps, Yong Xiang, you could elaborate on the points Tian Wen and i mentioned?
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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