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Post by 2cisaacng23 on Apr 10, 2008 6:10:44 GMT -5
Hey all. I'll be attempting Question 3.
Question 3: What is the significance of the conch?
Other than the conch being a symbol of authority and order, I feel that it is also a link back to the civilized world. In LOTF, survival instincts and a certain degree of savageness is being gradually introduced chapter by chapter. However, the conch remains relatively unharmed until the later chapters, when it splinters into pieces, although there is contempt and disregard shown by Jack and some of the other boys in the earlier chapters. The fact that the conch has 'survived' to the later chapters; I think that it symbolizes that there is still law and order on the island. With Ralph on one hand, keeping a fire burning and smoking in hope of rescue and Jack on the other, hunting and surviving the best he could on the island, the former represents more of a civilized behaviour rather than a survival instinct kind of approach by the latter. The conch is one of the only most important symbols of social order and civilized rationale in the entire book, as it can summon an assembly of all the children and give power to the holder to voice his opinions and views.
I feel that the conch had gained its respect when it was first used to summon all the boys into an assembly right after the plane crash. By using it to denote that someone was still alive (Ralph) and calling all survivors to gather, the conch garnered its awe and respect from the boys, as something that had brought them together. If not, there would be not much significance attached to the conch other than its uses, right of speech and leadership.
Thanks.
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 10, 2008 7:32:01 GMT -5
Perhaps i have not been clear. i refer terre's comment on my post. I have, all this while , been seeking clarification on how The conch helps the boys to learn to be independent..
Regards, Tian wen
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Post by 2balcanderseah01 on Apr 10, 2008 7:49:40 GMT -5
I will help Terre to answer your question regarding on how the conch helps the boys to learn to be independent. Well, I feel that the conch helped the boy to learn and achieve independence in one way or another. This can be further elaborated by examples. Whenever Ralph blows the conch, calling for an assembly, decisions and discussions are usually made and brought up through the meeting. From there, Ralph will have the final say on whether to make amendments to the suggestions made. With Ralph acting as the leader, having the authority to enforce decisions, it had helped him and the rest of the group to learn to be independent as they make their own decisions. Hence, I feel that the conch has indirectly helped the boys to achieve a certain level of independence as boys. Also, whenever a person was holding the conch, no one was allowed to interrupt him unless Ralph chose to intervene. From this example, it also proves the fact that the conch has helped the boys to achieve independence in one way or another. Thank you. If you have any comments, please voice it out. Regards, Alcander
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2cryuto29
New Member
Zaraki Kentucky
Posts: 9
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Post by 2cryuto29 on Apr 10, 2008 8:03:50 GMT -5
Hi all, I will be sharing my views on questions 2 and 3
2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig?
It's a very straightforward answer. He is still young and cannot bring himself to kill an animal. He could not stand seeing the blood when he kills the pig so he could not bring himself to stab the pig with his knife even though everyone was hungry. In the beginning of the story when they jsut landed on the island, they were still innocent children and they have yet to showtheir savage chracteristics and depseration to survive. Also, he could not bear to kill the pig was because he will still a 12 year old child. He was still a young child whom I am quite sure was brought not to not kill any living creature may it be human or animal. They landed unprepared on the island. They were not "trained" in any way for such incidents so it was quite a natural thing to do as a child.
3) What is the significance of the conch? When the conch was found, Ralph blew into it and it played a "moo" sound. He beleived that this sound was a good way of calling everyone back to meet as it could be heard form vey far places. In society, people such as the Prime Minsiter or the President, when they are speaking, everyone keeps silent because they respect them for thir power, authority and high status. The conch is a visible representative of those 3. So, Ralph decided that during a meeting, when one wishes to speak, he should ask to receieve the conch to speak because there is a large number of children so one cannot properly voice his opinions due to the noise made by them. Therefore, Ralph believed that by implementing this system, one can easil get his message to everyone else although the others will start talkingamong themselves when one has finish giving his "speech"
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 10, 2008 8:12:14 GMT -5
I refer to Tian Wen's question on how the conch helps the boys to learn to be independent.
When Ralph found the conch, he used it to call the other boys and have a meeting, setting down rules that they would live by for the remainder of their stay on the island.
Hence, with the discovery of the conch, comes the sense of authority. With the sense of authority, comes law and order, whereby Ralph set down rules that the boys should abide to for their stay on the island before they were rescued.
After the rules are set down, the boys on the island shall learn to be independent by abiding to the rules and keeping themselves alive on the island.
Hence, the conch helps the boys to learn to be independent eventually as rules are set down when the conch was discovered. With the presence of the rules, the boys on the island would have to abide to them and learn to be independent as they were all by themselves on the island.
Hence, being all by themselves on the island, it was a chance for the boys to learn to be independent.
Probably, independence may not be a good significance of the conch.
In my opinion, a better significance of the conch could have been democratic power.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 10, 2008 8:14:21 GMT -5
Yes, terre i agree with you , but to a certain extent. Have you ever considered the littluns? Are you sure the littluns are independent?
Thanks, tian wen
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 10, 2008 8:20:05 GMT -5
Hey all,
In my opinion, Alcander's point on how the conch has helped the boys to learn to be independent is a good one.
All in all, the conch helps the boys to learn to be independent indirectly.
Nice one Alcander.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 10, 2008 8:26:11 GMT -5
Yes, Tian Wen, i agree with you that littluns were not independent.
BUT through this experience on the island, the littluns should have learnt to be independent in one way or another since they were all by themselves on the island and they would learn to be independent indirectly as they tried to keep themselves alive on the island.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 10, 2008 8:36:11 GMT -5
I refer to the previous comment made by terre.
Terre, are you sure the littluns can be independent through the experience on the island. I refuse to accept this claim.
1.) The liitluns built sandcastles on the beach, and treated this entire affair like some sort of fun camp.
2.) The littluns were easily swayed by Jack in the later part of the book. This shows that , innately, the weakness of the littluns . They were not sure-footed on their choice of choosing Ralph as leader, and wre perhaps attracted by the fact that Jack's hunters can provide them a sense of security Ralph's group cannot.
3.) The littluns seem calm about being stranded on an uninhabited island, but were reminded of their sorrows when Percival ( i can't quite remember who) brought up a nerve-wrecking question. This shows that they heavily depended on the parents for comfort and a sense of security.
4.) The littluns could not get food themselves, nor could they help out in the building of the shelters. Without the help of the bigger boys,there would be no hut, no meat , no fruits (Simon helped them pick the fruits in chapter three) which all equates to no chance of survival on this island.
All in all , these are just some of the many statements which support my motion.
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 10, 2008 8:52:20 GMT -5
I refer to the previous comment made by Tian Wen.
Firstly, Tian Wen said the liitluns built sandcastles on the beach, and treated this entire affair like some sort of fun camp. This is because the littluns were still young, not because they could not be independent. I cannot see how what Tian Wen had said about the littluns building sandcastles is linked to learning of being independent.
As for Tian Wen's third and fourth point, the things you have stated all happened in the beginning of the story.
Yes, i agree the littluns were not independent in the beginning of the story.
What i had been trying to say is the littluns would have learnt to be independent after their experience on the island, which is at the end of the whole story.
Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 10, 2008 9:04:20 GMT -5
Hi terre,
yes, my third and fourth points may be at the beginning of the story, but do consider my second point. That lasts nearly the entire story.
All in all, the littluns are not independent , to a certain extent.
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 10, 2008 9:07:55 GMT -5
In accordance to terre's question, here's another equation to clear any misunderstanding.
Building of sandcastles ---what little children do at the beach ( immaturity to a certain extent) ----- immaturity = dependency on others ( to a certain extent)
Do post any comments.
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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2cjaredkohqianxin13
Guest
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Post by 2cjaredkohqianxin13 on Apr 11, 2008 7:43:09 GMT -5
2) Why do you think Jack didn't kill the pig?
I think it is because they were from an extremely civilized society. They were British. Thus killing and bloodshed is uncommon in front of the British, more so young children. Thus, Jack did not kill the pig as the rules of civilization restrained him.
3) What is the significance of the conch?
I think the rules represent authority. It represents and air of superiority. This is because anyone with the conch has the right to speak. And thus the conch is like and 'emblem' that warrants someone to speak uninterrupted.
4) What is the significance of Piggy's spectacles?
I think it represents wisdom and experience. He began wearing specs since he was three (literally). But in the real world, he also got to analyze things more deeply or from a different point of view as compared to the other children on the island. Thus, having the specs enables him to 'see' from a different perspective.
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Post by 2cmarcusyeo33 on Apr 11, 2008 23:09:49 GMT -5
I like to reply question 1: 1)What is social order? How does it come about on the island?
Social order is the way people behave and carry out practices such that they live like a normal human.
I think the idea of social order first comes about with the introduction of Piggy. Piggy asked Ralph his name, then "waited to be asked his name in turn". Piggy lives in a society where manners are used. And politeness and manners is an aspect of social order, where they bring about the idea of being civilised. Like i said in my other post, Piggy represents the law and order of the adult world. His regular references to his aunt, who enforces social rules upon him, shows this point. His practicality and rationality also shows social order, which brings in his finding of the conch. With this conch, meetings are held, which show how people act as humans by having these social meetings. These assemnlys creat a sense of purpose and direction. This also brings about social order, for whithout any direction to head to, people become animals, only living by instinct. Like James has said, the "voting" duuring the first gathering to vote for a chief, is something a civilised society will do. The idea of having a leader, somewhat like a president or prime minister, shows the idea of having law and order, which brings about social order.
Marcus Yeo 2C
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Post by 2cjiangshen14 on Apr 12, 2008 6:14:33 GMT -5
Hi,
Here are my answers for Questions 2, 3 and 4. Feel free to comment.
2) I believe it was the first time that Jack has killed a pig. Some more he was still child and he was still very innocently at that time. We know that Jack desires power and were not happy at losing the election to Ralph. Later on, to show that he could be a skilled hunter in front of Ralph and Simon, he tried to kill the pig. However, this was the first time he was doing it. And he may not know the meaning of bloodlust. Hence, he can't stand the "unbearable blood" as quoted from page 41 of the book.
3) Without the conch, Ralph will have a hard time looking for other children. Moreover, blowing the conch created a sound so loud that it actually ‘summoned’ all the children on the island. It also created the impression on most of the children that he was both wise and powerful. Hence, when later in the election, almost everybody voted for Ralph as the leader.
4) Piggy’s spectacles can be used to light a fire on the island which is needed to produce smoke and thus alert passing ships and be rescued. It also gives the others an impression that he was knowledgeable and smart – he might have read so many books that he needed a spectacle. Additionally, he often took off his glasses and wiped them whenever he was sad, ashamed and embarrassed. This prevents the others from concentrating on him, giving him a break.
Regards, Jiang Shen
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