Chapter 5: Beast from Water

[S2Lit2008HCI]

1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?

2) What is meant/implied by "every path was an improvisation"?

3) How is it significant that the boys now conceive of the 'Beastie' as one that comes from water as opposed to their previous concept of it?

[2chuyongda10]

3) How is it significant that the boys now conceive of the 'Beastie' as one that comes from water as opposed to their previous concept of it?

Their fear greatly intensifies. The boys¡¯ fear of the beast becomes an increasingly important aspect of their lives, especially at night, from the moment the first littlun claims to have seen a snake-monster in Chapter 2. In chapter 2, the beast was thought to be camouflaged by the trees and forest during the day and a few of the boy were still cynical and skeptical to the existance of such a beast. However, in this chapter, the fear of the beast finally explodes, ruining Ralph¡¯s attempt to restore order to the island and precipitating the final split between Ralph and Jack. At this point, it remains uncertain whether or not the beast actually exists. In any case, the beast serves as one of the most important symbols in the novel, representing both the terror and primitive desires for violence, power, and savagery that lurk within every human soul.

[2bmarcuschong03]

Hey all, I am here to voice my views on Question 3.
By the way, I fully agree with Yong Da's points on this question.

3) How is it significant that the boys now conceive of the 'Beastie' as one that comes from water as opposed to their previous concept of it?

The beast can be interpreted in many different ways. In a religious reading, for instance, the beast recalls the devil. In other way, it can represent the instinctual urges and desires of the human unconscious mind. However we interpret the beast, the littlun’s idea of the monster rising from the sea terrifies the boys because it represents the beast’s emergence from their own unconscious minds. As Simon realizes later in the novel, the beast is not necessarily something that exists outside in the jungle. Rather, it already exists inside each boy’s mind and soul, the capacity for savagery and evil that slowly overwhelms them. This is significant of how the boys have changed their personality and the stronger their desires for savagery have became.

Regards,
Marcus Chong 2B03

[2bwenkang04]

Hi all,
I shall be answering question 1. first.
I think that the grown-ups represent common sense and knowledge to Piggy. This is evident in the text in which Piggy says,"Grown-ups know things, they ain't afraid of the dark. They meet and have tea and discuss. Then things 'ud be all right," This is significant as it shows that Grown-ups supposedly 'know' things. From my point of view, it can be seen that Piggy looks up to the Grown-ups and respects them. He sees them as figures of knowledge and common sense, because they 'know everything'.
Thank you.
I shall be answering the other questions next time.
Wen Kang.

[2balcanderseah01]

3) How is it significant that the boys now conceive of the 'Beastie' as one that comes from water as opposed to their previous concept of it?



I feel that this is significant as it clearly shows the increasing severity of the littluns thinking about the beast, as Yong Da has mentioned from a snake like monster at the start to a monster that now lurks in the water. This idea showed a great significance as it shows how fear can confuse your sense of morality. The presence of the beast, tactically increasing within everyone, destroys the last attempt by Ralph to get everyone back to where they started. On the other hand, Jack used this knowledge to cleverly manipulate the boys to his own advantages, forcing them into obliging with him. Thus, with Jack gaining the upper hand as he knows how to use the fear in the boys¡¯ mind to control everyone, he leaves the group more fearful than before, forcing the majority of them to switch sides over to Jack¡¯s and overlooked the barbaric and savage behavior of Jack for the sake of their own safety.

Thus the beast also becomes one of Jack¡¯s main sources for authority and power. With the hallucinations in the littluns mind getting deeper and deeper, the more influence Jack will have over his tribe. Hence from all this, I can conclude that the opposing concepts of the beast played a great significance as it had led to the downfall of Ralph and at the same time the victory of Jack.

That is all I have to say for now. I will answer the other questions later.

[2btaytianwen28]

For now, i will only be attempting question 1.

1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?

"Grown-ups" symbolise a higher level of intellectual capability and maturity This is evident in the converstion at the last part of chapter 5: Beast from Water. It is stated that "grown-ups" will not think of beasts, nor are they afraid of the dark. This is due to the adult's mental maturity, and it is a known fact that aults are rigid and realistic when it comes to thinking. They too possess a higher intellectual capability, as it is stated that the "grown-ups" will build a ship, nor would they "set fire to the island". From these, it shows that Piggy admired "grown-ups" for their characteristics.

Regards ,

Tian Wen

[2bmarcuschong03]

Now I will be posting my views on Question 1.

1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?

Basically, in my opinion, most "grown-ups" are more reliable/better in anyways, in the forms of knowledge, decisions, civilization, maturity, leadership abilities, etc. One important quote is "Grown-ups know things, they ain't afraid of the dark." It shows the "grown-ups" represent the reliable, mature, intelligent and great masses of humans.

Meanwhile after the conflict, the assembly breaks up as Jack leads them on a hunt. Only Ralph, Piggy and Simon remain. Ralph says that if he blows the conch to summon them back and they refuse, then they will become like animals and will never be rescued. He does ask Piggy whether there are ghosts or beasts, but Piggy reassures him. Piggy warns him that if Ralph steps down as chief Jack will do nothing but hunt, and they will never be rescued. The three reminisce on the majesty of adult life. All the things that is mentioned and done by the others except Ralph Simon Piggy above are showing the opposite of how "Grown-ups" would behave. Again explained what the "grown-ups" represents.

In the book, Piggy represents maturity, civilization, science, intellect, clear-sightedness, and an adult figure. He must have been under the influence of a "grown-up" to develop such qualities. Therefore he would look up to "grown-ups", admire them and hence their opinions would be important to him.

Regards,
Marcus Chong 2B03

[2bongyuhao17]

1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?

The grown ups represented a figure of maturity and someone who is able to lead the boys. The boys on the island simply had no adults to lead and guide them, therefore they had went out of control. Adults are often stereotyped as infallible individuals in childrens. If there were adults among the boys, the adults would be able to control the group much easier than Ralph. This is so because little children have been always told to listen to their parents since young and this would be influential to the children. Grown ups have always been a symbol of authority in front of young children. It is just like when the teacher asks the student to do something, the student would have to oblige, the same goes to your parents asking you to do something. Piggy is an obedient boy because when his aunt told him not to run, he would not. Piggy believes that adults are more reliable and matured. Hence, their opinions would mean a lot to Piggy. Piggy also thinks that whatever the adults say would be for his own good, like his aunt asking him not to run because he has asthma.

[2bongyuhao17]

3) How is it significant that the boys now conceive of the 'Beastie' as one that comes from water as opposed to their previous concept of it?

I believe that the boys are becoming increasingly paranoid and are now inclined to believe that there is a beast living on the island. The boys would nevertheless be more increasingly worried that the beast might come and attack them. Like Alcander mentioned, Jack exploited this belief in the boys and tried to cajole them onto side. Jack is the leader of the hunters and the hunters are brave people who hunts things down. Like Samneric who joins Jack, they probably believe that Jack could provide the security they needed. This is evident from how Jack and his hunters were able to hunt down wild boars which are known to be wild animals as the name suggests. Jack's hunters is a stark contrast to Ralph's team. This is also significant as it tells us that the boys are now greatly influenced by this false thoughts. It has also contributed to one of the major factor in which the boys turn more savage as the thought of the wild beast have polluted their minds, just like terrorists organizations. Osama similarly was also influenced by some extreme thoughts and decided to hijack a plane and crash it into a building. This were actions of a savage person similar to the boys.

[2balcanderseah01]

I agree with Tian Wen on his analysis regarding Simon. However, two points you have mentioned made me quite confused. I hope that you will be able to clarify it as soon as possible. From the sentences "restraining from issues of the world " and " He strays away from the situation around him ", I feel that it is a little inapporiate to mention it.

Firstly, I do not think that it is right to claim that Simon restrains himself from the issues around him and starys away from the situation around him. It is too generalized as Simon, like Ralph, Piggy and the littuns, all have the same desire to be rescued.
Even though Simon was closely connected to nature, it does not mean that he did not think of being rescued at all.

Of course, you point made across is true to a certain extent, and I hope that you will be able to clarify what you mean exactly by saying that Simon restrains from issues of the world and strays away from the situation around him.

That is all I have to say.

Thank You

[2btaytianwen28]

Hi all,

i refer to alcander's comments on my previous post. "Restraining from issues of the world" --- this statement refers to POLITICS. In this context, i am indirectly refering to the bitter quarrel between Ralph and Jack over the leadership of the boys .

Here is a simple equation to clear any misintepretations.

Politics -- World, country scale (state scale as well)
Here -- Small scale "Politics"

Hope this helps to clear any misunderstanding.

Thanks,

Tian Wen

[2balcanderseah01]

2) What is meant/implied by "every path was an improvisation"?

I think that the meaning implied that every path was an improvisation was that all of us were too cautious about what we were doing.

Quoted from the book ¡°Suddenly, pacing by the water, he was overcome with astonishments. He found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life, where every path was an improvisation and a considerable part of one¡¯s waking life was spent watching one¡¯s feet.¡± I think that William Golding wanted to tell us that although we were people imposed with the entrapment of civilization, constantly checking our behavior and actions, we were spending too much time on it and when the external forces of civilization leaves us, we are still no longer be in our usual top notch behavior as there is no one left to check on us. From the book, when no adults were on the island to check on the code of conduct of the boys on the island, they went wild in a short period of time and thus descended into savagery.

Hence, I feel that the meaning implied by "every path was an improvisation" probably meant that no matter how cautious you are, even if are spending too much time checking on yourself, you will still be influenced if your managing of moral values was not firm from the beginning.

[2cmarcusyeo33]

I would like to reply the 1st question:
1) What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?

Grown-ups represent law and order. They also represent maturity and practicality. For the boys, adults are the ones that enforce dicipline. Adults, at their age, control their lives. It is also the people the children look to when they encounter a problem.

And this is especially so to Piggy as to Piggy it is only right to follow the laws of civilization. He does not think it is possible if something is without logic and reasoning.This is because Piggy lives by acting according to an absolute set of standards that the adult world possesses. He tries to mimick the situation on the island, and create a similar environment he is familiar with back where he lives. In the book, Piggy represents the law and order of the adult world, voicing reason and logic.

He uses "common sense" and practicality in his ideas and sees the world around him strictly with his five senses. "Life... is scientific... I know there isn't no beast- not with claws and all that, I mean- but i know there isn't no fear, either... unless we get frightened of people."

Piggy makes references to his aunt, and the rules of civilization that had set down on him. " Like a pack of kids!" Piggy often critisizes the boys of their lack of rationality. Because to him, everything should and must make sense.

However, interestingly enough, it is ironic while Piggy tries to follow the example of a civilized society of adults that possess law and order, the "grown-ups" are actually fighting a meaningless war back in their country.

Marcus Yeo 2C

[2balcanderseah01]

What do the "grown-ups" represent? Why is their opinion important to Piggy?

I feel that the grown ups represent a role model for all the boys, especially Piggy. Take for example, the rules and regulations of the island implemented by Ralph, were mostly abstracted from the adult world, like oranizing meeting, building tents, letting the person holding the conch have the authority to speak etc. All this shows that the children on the island looked up to the adults as their role model after modelling their community into one similar to the adult world.

Piggy admires the adults a lot too as he probably feels that whatever they do was always bound to be correct as can be quoted from " Grown-ups, know things," "They aren't afraid of the dark. They meet and have tea and discuss." This shows that Piggy indeed admired the adults a lot and even quoted to Ralph and everybody what they would have done in such a situation. As Wen Kang had mentioned earlier, He sees them as figures of knowledge and common sense, because they 'know everything'.

Thank You. ;D

[2btaytianwen28]

Hi all ,

i will be attempting question 2 :What is meant/implied by "every path was an improvisation"?

I will be writing in support of Alcander's post.

The full statement as quoted from the book : "He found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life, where every path was an improvisation and a considerable part of one's waking life was spent watching one's feet"

Every path was an improvisation" probably refers to us humans being overcautious , due to various resons.

Overcautiousness results from the entrapment of civilsiation, as alcander has already stated, being overconscious about our actions and behavior towards others. (social relating). This influences our social mindset, locking us within the cage of humanity. As people watch over your actions and behavior, they sreve as "eyes" that monitor you day after day. As a result, many resort to being overly cautious with thier actions, thinking that a wrong move could tarnish their good name.

However, in LOTF, the stranded boys were left unwatched, as there were no adults on the island . Without the watchful "eyes" monitoring them, the very vaues and entrapment of civilisation is lost, as the boys slowly descend into savagery.

All in all, "Every path was an improvisation" probably refers to us humans being overcautious , due to various resons, and no matter how cautious we are towards ourselves, disastrous consequences are inevitable if we do not manage our moral values well

Do post any comments.

Thanks,

Tian Wen