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Post by S2Lit2008HCI on Mar 28, 2008 4:14:07 GMT -5
1) Why does Jack force Samneric to join his tribe, yet seem intent on pursuing Ralph to his death?
2) When, how and why do the boys change from savages to little boys in the eyes of the reader?
3) How is the ending of the novel disturbing or potentially unsatisfying to the reader?
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Post by 2btaytianwen28 on Apr 10, 2008 9:01:16 GMT -5
Hi all ,
i will be attempting question one for now.
1) Why does Jack force Samneric to join his tribe, yet seem intent on pursuing Ralph to his death?
Smaneric are former followers under Ralph. They were a vital asset in the team, having warned the tribe of a beast from air (though that may have been false) and played an important role in the overall development of the story. Jack perhaps valued them as beneficial followers and thus forced them to join his tribe.
Ralph, on the contrary, is Jack's most hated enemy, due to may reasons. Ralph often opposed to decisions made by Jack , often thinking them as absurd, and greatly humiliated him during the first election for chief. The burning hatred for Ralph has led to Jack bloodthirsty for revenge. With the masses in his side in the later part of the story, he combed every inch of the island in srch of Ralph, and this serves as evidence of his hated for ralph.
Ralph laid out rules so as to preserve the dreadlock of humanity and civilisation within the boys, while Jack seeked to destroy and break way from it to lead a life of savagery. Such contrasting ideals has led to Jack's hatred for Ralph, thought to a certain extent.
Also, Ralph was focused on the survival and well-being of the boys, to a certain extent, until rescue came, whereas all bloodthirsty Jack could fathom about is killing wild boars for meat.
Again, such contrasting ideals has led to Jack's hatred for Ralph, though to a certain extent.
Do post any comments .
Thanks,
Tian Wen
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Post by 2cjaredkoh13 on Apr 11, 2008 7:56:45 GMT -5
1) Why does Jack force Samneric to join his tribe, yet seem intent on pursuing Ralph to his death?
Samneric are the main supporting pillar of Ralph. The civilization of boys have divided into two factions. Accept it. It's a fact that can't be altered.
Jack may seem to know that once the two biguns, the supporting pillars of Ralph are on Jack's side, Ralph may be subtly forced into submission without the help of Samneric.
Jack may also use the capture of Samneric as a bait to lure Ralph out as Ralph might attempt to rescue Samneric and Jack would take this opportunity to capture and force Ralph to join Jack's tribe.
2) When, how and why do the boys change from savages to little boys in the eyes of the reader?
Firstly, they are away from civilization. This too long period of being away slowly washes away any imprints of civilization will be removed as they have the desire to fight and survive in the wild, not gentle British boys back home in Britain (now United Kingdoms) .
Secondly, they need food. With more experience in hunting as they hunt for longer periods of times and more frequently, they slowly get used to the sight of slaughter, bloodshed and pain. Thus they become savage under the influence of their lifestyle.
Thirdly, they are still considered as kids. Their characters are not fully developed and they tend to get influenced easily. If they were teenagers, perhaps in their 14s to 16s, they might think more sensibly. Thus, their under-developed mindset and thinking swayed them to savagery easily.
3) How is the ending of the novel disturbing or potentially unsatisfying to the reader?
The ending ends to abruptly and a bit unclear on how the exact rescue took place. Thus, when the reader was enjoying himself of herself, the ending is an anti-climax.
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Post by 2cangrayyan03 on Apr 14, 2008 5:09:05 GMT -5
Hi All: These are my thoughts (once again)
1)
Firstly, I think Jack wanted to exclude Ralph on purpose, for I believe that there are so many conflicts between Ralph and Jack. Also, Piggy was presumably dead when they captured samneric. This left Ralph alone, for Jack knew that Ralph would never become someone like him, who would kill pigs and have fun, but rather, set up a signal fire time after time for hopes of rescue.
After establishing this backgrounds, I shall continue. Now, there are only five people with Ralph's mentality, or at least close to it. They are Ralph (of course) , Piggy (killed by stone), Simon (killed during the ritual) , SamnEric (2 persons left surviving). This list obviously shows us that Jack would dominate everyone except Ralph himself if they had SamnEric in their hands. So, this is trying to tell us that Jack is trying to exterminate Ralph because he wants power, he wants to be leader, ALL the way from the start, and with everyone on his side, Ralph can only then be eliminated once and for all, and this island's leader would be Jack.
Also, SamnEric in the very, very first place would already help Jack and his tribe to hunt down Ralph, for they knew Ralph's hideout, and Jack and Roger's torture would make them "let the cat out of the bag", rendering Ralph defenseless except for the spear he has till the very end. Then , of course, they would probably thereby either eliminate SamnEric (my own assumption if there was no Dues Ex Machina in the Story) or SamnEric would slowly turn to be like Jack as well, for they were young, fresh minds easily influenced by all others , with the help of time. Thus, SamnEric is used for eliminating Ralph once and for all by Jack, and also probably work for them.
2)
I will first explain how they became savages.They have all changed to savages for those who joined the tribe, due to the need for survival perhaps. With Jack's strong will for power and him being adventurous, many joined him in the quest for fun and something new. Hunting then became something frequent and feasts were so often, with the same dance performed every time. This eventually led all but the most disciplined to Jack's cause, for he brought them what they wanted and none of the tribe probably cared about what they needed (except for food, for which they cannot live).
Suppose those who actually still was "Not" a savage surviving are SamnEric with Ralph, and the others have all turned wild. Now comes the point at the end of the story, when all the boys come face to face with the naval officer, something like a distance memory of civilization brought back to their minds. Probably by then only did the followers realize their folly at a moment's time, and all started sobbing , which is the time when they probably, clear themselves of the name "savages", and for me this is the time when they started looking like real little boys once again, unlike what seemed like some time ago.
To me, the boys changed because they realized their mistake, admitted it, just like any other little boy would whenever they did something wrong at school, at home, or in public. This, as the text suggests, ended the "darkness of man's heart" (p. 248) and turned them back again. This leads me to something I wish to say, which is if not for the Dues Ex Machina ending, this would have been impossible, and it will end with a bunch of savages and murderers. Thus, they returned to their original form due to the ending, Ralph's sobbing, old memories of civilization and probably but not stated, their conscience.
3)
Firstly, This is a Dues Ex Machina Ending. In this case, it is Ralph running away from "the line" of hunters and bumping into a naval officer, which leaves the reader clueless to the officer's origin. Of course , if I were the writer, I wouldn't think of a way to come up with a story ending in another way, because there was nothing else, no fight, no conflict, no nothing, which then rendered the story purposeless to continue if Ralph disappeared.
This is, of course, unsatisfactory to readers, like me. What readers want is a good introduction , suspension, climax, and a NICE and PROPER resolution. Now, the first three have been fulfilled, but not the last. This is because of the fact that all readers want something logical , or already defined before, not something that pops out all of a sudden, and this, leaves the readers unsatisfied.
With regards to whether it is disturbing, thats hard to say. But in the whole of this last chapter, it is basically about the line that marks Ralph's death. Ralph was moving from hideout to hideout, and finally reached the beach. Of course, it should be slightly disturbing in this case , during the running from the line, for there were potential times when Ralph could be killed, and the description of Ralph's thoughts and feelings at that time intensified the situation.
To Conclude, it is slightly disturbing and of course, and unsatisfactory ending is given to the readers.
Feel free to comment on my posts, and Thank you for reading this.
Regards,
Ray Yan
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Post by 2bongyuhao17 on Apr 15, 2008 5:45:43 GMT -5
3) How is the ending of the novel disturbing or potentially unsatisfying to the reader?
Much of the irony at the end of the novel stems from Golding’s portrayal of the naval officer. Although the naval officer saves Ralph, the ending of Lord of the Flies still is not particularly happy, and the moment in which the officer encounters the boys is not one of untainted joy. The officer says that he is unable to understand how upstanding British lads could have acted with such poor form. Ironically, though, this “civilized” officer is himself part of an adult world in which violence and war go hand in hand with civilization and social order. He reacts to the savage children with disgust, yet this disgust is tinged with hypocrisy. Similarly, the children are so shocked by the officer’s presence, and are now psychologically so far removed from his world, that they do not instantly celebrate his arrival. Rather, they stand before him baffled and bewildered. Even Ralph, whose life has literally been saved by the presence of the ship, weeps tears of grief rather than joy. For Ralph, as for the other boys, nothing can ever be as it was before coming to the island of the Lord of the Flies.
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Post by 2afanyi10 on Apr 19, 2008 6:12:04 GMT -5
1)
I feel that Jack forced Sam and Eric to join his tribe not because they were useful, but because they had been good friends with Ralph, thus forcing them join would certainly result in Ralph finding them to know what was happening. Also, due to the fact that the Sam, Eric and Ralph's relationship was somewhat close, Jack could force some information about Ralph from them. And probably most importantly, Jack forced Samneric to join the tribe so that Ralph had nobody to seek help. Jack might have known that Ralph was not good in making choices and always got the ideas from Piggy, thus making Ralph the only person he had to deal with would be easier, since Ralphcould not really make choices.
Jack intended to pursue Ralph to his death as Ralph was the person who was his competition thw whole time. First when they voted for the chief when they were first on the island. Secondly when Jack felt that Ralph was not worthy to be the chief and called for another vote, in which he lost again. Also, Jack must have been a person who did not like to be embarrassed, thus he hated Ralph for humiliating him (whether intentionally or not). Lastly because Jack felt that Ralph would always be his competitor as long as he was on the island. Since Jack was a selfish person and did not want to "share" his "domain" with anyone else, he would want to kill Ralph so that nobody would fight with him anymore.
2)
They changed from savages to llittle boys when they saw the British officer standing on the shore. This was due to the fact that there were no adults when they were first on the island, thus any laws did not really affect them as no adult would come along and punish them if they did anything wrong. Seeing the British officer made them fully realise what they were doing all these time, thus returning the sense of law back to them.
3)
Based on my own-self-invented-patented-no-copy-allowed Depressionism, this type of ending was disturbing due to the fact that the author decided that he would implant a worrying seed into the reader's mercilessly in the end. This was due to the fact that while the boys were crying their hearts out about what had happened and what they had done, the British officer was looking at the cruiser in the distance. This suggested that the "period of darkness" was not really over. Even though the war on the island was over, the war of that time was still waging, thus this suggested that the boys were happily throwing away the memory and fear of the war on the island only to experience a more sever war in the word. Based on my Depressionism, this was commonly known as a bad-ending-which-looked-good-from-the-outside-but-make-you-reread-the-ending-again-and-realised-that-it-was-not-really-a-good-ending.
Openus,
Fan Yi
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 30, 2008 0:57:48 GMT -5
Hi all,
I will be answering question 3.
Question 3
How is the ending of the novel disturbing or potentially unsatisfying to the reader?
The ending of the novel is indeed disturbing, or in fact chilling.
Ralph and the boys appear to have been saved and Jack's rule destroyed. Again the perspective shifts, and we look away from the boys and out toward the cruiser.
The boys will be heading into another war. Ralph has been saved not to return to the home he has dreamt of but to be carried toward a larger war not of his making.
Those who are conducting the war have the same immature attitudes about civilization and power that the boys on the island had. The "Jacks" of the world may yet have their way.
The big or exaggerating change in perspective moves the focus away from the boys and turns it on the world and on us.
Ralph has made war just as men of the world do. Ralph and the boys are like the rest of humanity; even in this ideal place they have bowed to the military instinct because thinking and choices to be made are so difficult.
Golding is telling his readers that we too will be destroyed. We must remember that the world which surrounds us is our island, and we must feel and act responsibly toward it. We have a responsibility to protect our civilization and its freedoms, especially the freedoms of choice and speech.
Hence, from the above discussion, it can be concluded that the ending of the story is indeed disturbing since Golding stated we too will be destroyed.
Cheers,
Terre Chua
2B29
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Post by 2b27pangshiang on Apr 30, 2008 3:26:13 GMT -5
The boys will be heading into another war. Ralph has been saved not to return to the home he has dreamt of but to be carried toward a larger war not of his making.
Those who are conducting the war have the same immature attitudes about civilization and power that the boys on the island had. The "Jacks" of the world may yet have their way.
The big or exaggerating change in perspective moves the focus away from the boys and turns it on the world and on us.
Ralph has made war just as men of the world do. Ralph and the boys are like the rest of humanity; even in this ideal place they have bowed to the military instinct because thinking and choices to be made are so difficult.
Golding is telling his readers that we too will be destroyed. We must remember that the world which surrounds us is our island, and we must feel and act responsibly toward it. We have a responsibility to protect our civilization and its freedoms, especially the freedoms of choice and speech. I agree to Terre's comment on this. From the ending, we know that the boys are saved from their own conflict but instead put into a greater, more destructive conflict that is on a greater scale. Or better said, out of the frying pan into the fire. The " Jacks" of the world, as Terre said, were the leaders of nations that started the war and such actions would lead to eventual destruction, if not stopped. If put into the context of the Second World War, Jack would compare to Hitler. He had many ways of enticing people, in Jack's case, meat, and in Hitler's case, propoganda and national pride. Furthermore, their enemies always end up dead or captured, like Piggy, Samneric and Simon, and with Hitler, religious leaders and democrats. Hence, Jack can be compared to Hitler if put into the context of the Second World War. However, this ending can be viewed from in another way. You can say that the war has already ended or was about to end as the Navy had time to rescue the boys. Thus the story seems to end abruptly in a miraculous cliche where the protagonist is indestructatble. It also is unpleasant as the conflict is not resolved properly and true conflicts never end in this manner. Thus the story is incomplete and is not appealing to the reader. |
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Post by 2b27pangshiang on Apr 30, 2008 3:39:11 GMT -5
1) Why does Jack force Samneric to join his tribe, yet seem intent on pursuing Ralph to his death?
I feel that this is because Ralph is a man of his own ideas, but Samneric are followers and thus they can be converted to follow Jack. Jack also has a great dislike for Ralph due to humiliation at his hands and thus wants revenge.
Samneric, as seen in the story, follow instead of leading. They obey Ralph and in the end, Jack, and when Jack told them to kill Ralph, they almost did. This shows that Samneric would follow their leader blindly and such people would make good henchmen.
Jack is intent on pursuing Ralph to his death as Ralph once humiliated Jack twice during the elections when Jack was forced to obey, and he probably seldom did such a thing, considering that he was the choir leader. Jack also lost to Ralph, who he considered less capable and thus was humiliated by losing to an inferior person. Jack also tried to befriend Ralph but was turned down. Jack's dislike for Ralph therefore accumulated and Jack sought revenge.
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Post by 2bterrechua29 on Apr 30, 2008 9:13:35 GMT -5
However, this ending can be viewed from in another way. You can say that the war has already ended or was about to end as the Navy had time to rescue the boys. Thus the story seems to end abruptly in a miraculous cliche where the protagonist is indestructatble. It also is unpleasant as the conflict is not resolved properly and true conflicts never end in this manner. Thus the story is incomplete and is not appealing to the reader. Hi all, I agree with Pang Shiang's comment to a certain extent. Pang Shiang stated that the war has already ended or was about to end. However, i do not feel that the war has already ened. Hence, i only agree with Pang Shiang that the war was about to end, but not his point that the war has ended. However, i strongly agree to his point that the story seems to end abruptly in a miraculous cliche where the protagonist is indestructatble, it is unpleasant as the conflict is not resolved properly and true conflicts never end in this manner. Thus the story is incomplete and is not appealing to the reader. Personally, i feel that this a good point made by Pang Shiang. Nice one, PS. Cheers, Terre Chua 2B29 |
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Post by 2cleeyiren16 on May 2, 2008 22:17:46 GMT -5
Q3
Why is it potentially unsatisfying?
Golding employs the device Deus ex machina which describes "an artificial, or improbable, character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot (such as an angel suddenly appearing to solve problems). ". This may implies a lack of skill on the part of the writer. It is thought that the writer was lazy to complete the story or unsure how to complete. Most people felt the ending would be describing the fate of Ralph when Jack captures him. However it was when Ralph was escaping his death, he met the captain who saves the situation, all of the sudden the boys are returned to civilisation. All the savagery was completely lost. The situation took a 180 degree turn. The ending is thus potentially unsatisfying as it ends abruptly.
Why is it disturbing?
I think the ending is scary and disturbing. Ralph was a young innocent boy from the start, marooned on an island. Initially, he wished to have fun while waiting for rescue. However, the ending is not the same. Ralph was experiencing a change in the people around you. His friends turned to savages who wanted to kill him. They were young boys! Ralph was running for his life. Even if he was rescued, his life will be affected greatly. What will happen to the savages? Will they be able to return to civilisation again and be normal people? The experience on the island was harrowing and will affect their mental health. Roger actually murdered Piggy. The rest killed Simon together. Now they tried to kill Ralph. In the end the British officer comment on "British boys" amplify their doubt and fear. They posted themselves a question. What defines human? Being compassionate and kind. What defines human nature? Human nature is having savagery instincts!! The boys felt confused, they felt frightened by the fact that savagery instincts lurks in every human.
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Post by 2amarcusgohsy12 on May 3, 2008 4:12:01 GMT -5
Hi all,
1) I think it is because Jack hated Ralph, for competing with him to be the leader and blaming him for many things, thus he wants revenge. He tries to get everyone to join his tribe because he wants Ralph to feel that no one is on his side anymore, everyone is against him.
2) From chasing Ralph and wanting to kill him, they suddenly stopped when they saw that they haven been spotted and can be rescued. They turned back to the old self of wanting to go home (like little boys).
3) The ending is disturbing and unsatisfying to the reader because Ralph had managed to escape death very luckily. If he is chased any longer, I guess he will be killed.
Marcus Goh
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Post by 2bmarcuschong03 on May 3, 2008 4:15:35 GMT -5
Hey all,
3) As we have seen, Ralph has worked tirelessly to retain the structure of civilization and maximize the boys’ chances of being rescued. Now, when all he can do is struggle to stay alive as long as possible, a deus ex machina (an improbable or unexpected device or character that suddenly appears to resolve a situation) appears, at the last possible moment, in the form of the naval officer who brings the boys back to the world of law, order, and society. Such endings are often used when the author couldn't think of how to continue the story further, readers at this point of time are already very engaged in the story, raising questions about will Ralph survive against Jack? What about Samneric? What about the other boys? All readers want something logical , not something thatjust pops out all of a sudden to end the story, leaves the readers unsatisfied. Much of the irony at the end of the novel stems from Golding’s portrayal of the naval officer. Although the naval officer saves Ralph, the ending of Lord of the Flies still is not particularly happy, and the moment in which the officer encounters the boys is not one of untainted joy. The officer says that he is unable to understand how upstanding British lads could have acted with such poor form. Ironically, though, this “civilized” officer is himself part of an adult world in which violence and war go hand in hand with civilization and social order. He reacts to the savage children with disgust, yet this disgust is tinged with hypocrisy. Similarly, the children are so shocked by the officer’s presence, and are now psychologically so far removed from his world, that they do not instantly celebrate his arrival. Rather, they stand before him baffled and bewildered. Even Ralph, whose life has literally been saved by the presence of the ship, weeps tears of grief rather than joy. For Ralph, as for the other boys, nothing can ever be as it was before coming to the island of the Lord of the Flies.
So to conclude, the resolution was rather disturbing and unsatisfactory to the readers.
REgards,
Marcus Chong 2B03
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Post by 2bjosephlim10 on May 3, 2008 12:20:34 GMT -5
1) Why does Jack force Samneric to join his tribe, yet seem intent on pursuing Ralph to his death? 2) When, how and why do the boys change from savages to little boys in the eyes of the reader? 3) How is the ending of the novel disturbing or potentially unsatisfying to the reader? 1)Jack forces Samneric to join his tribe, while seems intent on pursuing Ralph to his death because Jack wants revenge on Ralph. In the entire book, Ralph has been against Jack's way of living on the island, which is hunting pigs, and living like savages. Jack and Ralph has been competitors ever since they landed on the island. Thus, it just seems natural that Jack wants to kill Ralph, while letting Samneric join his tribe. I would think that Jack thinks that Samneric is influenced by Ralph, and thus, with Ralph gone, they would revert back to Jack, so I think that is why he let them join his tribe. 2)When Jack tries to burn the forest to drive Ralph out of it, it attracts the battleship that is close by. When the naval officer comes out to meet the boys, the boys are suddenly brought back to civilisation. They suddenly see an adult and a civilised object-the battleship, they suddenly remember that they are civilised people and not savages. They then revert back from their savagery to their little boys' personality. The naval officer still think that they have having fun and games when he arrives to meet the whole group, Jack and his hunters holding spears with Ralph looking very weary. So in the eyes of the reader, the boys turn back from savagery to their old little boys personality. 3) The last chapter of the book is unsatisfying to the reader because the ending is very anti-climax. Just when the reader starts to feel the excitement when the hunters chase after Ralph, the book suddenly comes to an abrupt end when the naval officer arrives on the island. There seems to be no real ending to the story because there story is suddenly cut. The reader might feel irritated because after reading 11 chapeters of the book, when they finally reach the climax in chapter 12, the climax is suddently cut short. So it is unsatisfying to some readers. The last chapter is also disturbing to the reader because it portrays the image of younf boys turning to savagery. At such a young age, seeing young boys trying to kill each other is potentially disturbing because this should not be happing in a civilised society. A reader, from a civilised world, should find it disturbing. Regards Joseph |
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Post by 2cleeyiren16 on May 5, 2008 3:40:41 GMT -5
1) Why does Jack force Samneric to join his tribe, yet seem intent on pursuing Ralph to his death?
I would give an example to explain. The boy's community resembles a political society. The littluns are the masses of common people and the older boys hold political positions of power and importance with regard to the underlings. So Ralph and Jack are political rivals of course they hated each other. Jack hated Ralph and was envious of his position as a leader. He wanted to take over. Jack representing the instinct of savagery would use his power to gratify hus own desires and act on their impulses, treating the littluns as servants or objects for their own amusement. As political rival, Jack would want to get rid of Ralph. As a brutal dictator, he would like to force the citizens to follow his will, serving as objects for him to entertain his desires and wield his power.
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